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How about a wind-powered boat powered completely without any batteries or oil at all? Let's call it... a sailboat. Are we just going back in time to when sail-p

How about a wind-powered boat powered completely without any batteries or oil at all? Let's call it... a sailboat. Are we just going back in time to when sail-powered ships powered commerce? Of course a sail-powered container ship might not be as viable, but I'd love to see a 16-masted sailing behemoth. The Wikipedia article about the Thomas W. Larson makes for interesting reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_W._Lawson_(ship) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_W._Lawson_(ship)

outlog 4y ago
https://www.theoceanbird.com/ https://www.theoceanbird.com/ - are creating a 200m ship, slated for 2026 - with plans for retrofittable products..
Retric 4y ago
There are still some smaller commercial cargo sailing ships, it’s somewhat ambiguous when the last major sailing ship stopped but 1949 is one reasonable date. The less obvious issue is simply manpower and difficulty loading intermodal containers.
- cogman10 4y ago
  What sort of manpower is required? Seems like loading the intermodal containers could be somewhat automated as well (granted, space would be limited due to the mast/s) I'm no sailor though. Just seems like we have more ability to finely control/automate stuff in ways that weren't available in 1949.
  - Retric 4y ago
    In terms of manpower, you can largely automate the sails today, though they do require maintenance. The issue is you basically need the same crew on a 20 TEU ship as a 20,000 TEU one, because you can’t safely operate with everyone asleep. Except sails scale in terms of surface vs drag scaling in part base on volume which makes mega sailing ships much more difficult. Now these aren’t insurmountable issues on their own, but wind as supplemental power via kites or something seems like a far more viable option.
  - mhh__ 4y ago
    "1, I suppose."
  - LeChuck 4y ago
    The discharging and loading of containers is already automated. Modern container terminals work almost completely autonomously. What specific automation did you have in mind to help with discharging/loading?
mediaman 4y ago
New ship designs are starting to use wind energy to reduce the amount of fuel consumption. It doesn't look like traditional sails, but large spinning rotors that interact with the wind to propel the ship forward. It's called the Magnus effect. This link has more info on it including some of the challenging issues of actually implementing it on large commercial ships. https://www.marineinsight.com/naval-architecture/flettner-rotor-for-ships-uses-history-and-problems/ https://www.marineinsight.com/naval-architecture/flettner-ro...
mulmen 4y ago
https://youtu.be/GYNKW_w95lA https://youtu.be/GYNKW_w95lA Does a good job of explaining why this isn’t practical. Although some supplementary wind power is possible. tl;dw: sails are tall and get in the way of (un)loading cargo. Fuel costs are borne by the lessee of the boat but sail costs are capital expenditures borne by the lessor.
- notahacker 4y ago
  > Fuel costs are borne by the lessee of the boat but sail costs are capital expenditures borne by the lessor. tbf, that one's pretty easily resolved by financiers if fuel costs of typical operational use are greater than the capital costs of the masts amortised over the expected life of the vessel and the ropes and sails amortised over the expected life of the ropes and sales. There's an established market for leasing aircraft and aero engines whose value is a function of fuel economy and how much the lessees' use devalues their life limited parts.
- smileysteve 4y ago
  These reasons are why kites are being prototyped. Kites take up little deck space, sail in stronger winds, and require less surface area.
Tarsul 4y ago
there is a recent guardian article about such a project: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/14/replacing-container-ships-with-sailing-boats-cargo-shipping-wind-power https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/14/replacing-cont...
bondant 4y ago
There’s at least one company trying to do that: https://www.towt.eu/en/towt-home/ https://www.towt.eu/en/towt-home/
mikro2nd 4y ago
I've long thought this[*]. We'd not be talking about going back to Clippers (beautiful as they were), rather we'd apply all that we've learned of hydrodynamics since, and we'd certainly hook the ships' guidance computers into the global weathersat/weather forecasting services, so there's no chance they'd ever lack for wind (they'd just navigate by where the wind is/is going to be when they get there.) I see no reason why a sailing ship shouldn't be almost fully autonomous (modulo docking/harbour operations) and capable of hitting highly-predictable schedules. We might need more of them if we have to make them much smaller than today's container vessels, but I guess we might be able to live with that if they cost much less to run. [*] about 45 years... ;)

outlog 4y ago

https://www.theoceanbird.com/ https://www.theoceanbird.com/ - are creating a 200m ship, slated for 2026 - with plans for retrofittable products..

Retric 4y ago

There are still some smaller commercial cargo sailing ships, it’s somewhat ambiguous when the last major sailing ship stopped but 1949 is one reasonable date. The less obvious issue is simply manpower and difficulty loading intermodal containers.

cogman10 4y ago
What sort of manpower is required? Seems like loading the intermodal containers could be somewhat automated as well (granted, space would be limited due to the mast/s) I'm no sailor though. Just seems like we have more ability to finely control/automate stuff in ways that weren't available in 1949.
- Retric 4y ago
  In terms of manpower, you can largely automate the sails today, though they do require maintenance. The issue is you basically need the same crew on a 20 TEU ship as a 20,000 TEU one, because you can’t safely operate with everyone asleep. Except sails scale in terms of surface vs drag scaling in part base on volume which makes mega sailing ships much more difficult. Now these aren’t insurmountable issues on their own, but wind as supplemental power via kites or something seems like a far more viable option.
- mhh__ 4y ago
  "1, I suppose."
- LeChuck 4y ago
  The discharging and loading of containers is already automated. Modern container terminals work almost completely autonomously. What specific automation did you have in mind to help with discharging/loading?

mediaman 4y ago

New ship designs are starting to use wind energy to reduce the amount of fuel consumption. It doesn't look like traditional sails, but large spinning rotors that interact with the wind to propel the ship forward. It's called the Magnus effect. This link has more info on it including some of the challenging issues of actually implementing it on large commercial ships. https://www.marineinsight.com/naval-architecture/flettner-rotor-for-ships-uses-history-and-problems/ https://www.marineinsight.com/naval-architecture/flettner-ro...

mulmen 4y ago

https://youtu.be/GYNKW_w95lA https://youtu.be/GYNKW_w95lA Does a good job of explaining why this isn’t practical. Although some supplementary wind power is possible. tl;dw: sails are tall and get in the way of (un)loading cargo. Fuel costs are borne by the lessee of the boat but sail costs are capital expenditures borne by the lessor.

notahacker 4y ago
> Fuel costs are borne by the lessee of the boat but sail costs are capital expenditures borne by the lessor. tbf, that one's pretty easily resolved by financiers if fuel costs of typical operational use are greater than the capital costs of the masts amortised over the expected life of the vessel and the ropes and sails amortised over the expected life of the ropes and sales. There's an established market for leasing aircraft and aero engines whose value is a function of fuel economy and how much the lessees' use devalues their life limited parts.
smileysteve 4y ago
These reasons are why kites are being prototyped. Kites take up little deck space, sail in stronger winds, and require less surface area.

Tarsul 4y ago

there is a recent guardian article about such a project: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/14/replacing-container-ships-with-sailing-boats-cargo-shipping-wind-power https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/14/replacing-cont...

bondant 4y ago

There’s at least one company trying to do that: https://www.towt.eu/en/towt-home/ https://www.towt.eu/en/towt-home/

mikro2nd 4y ago

I've long thought this[*]. We'd not be talking about going back to Clippers (beautiful as they were), rather we'd apply all that we've learned of hydrodynamics since, and we'd certainly hook the ships' guidance computers into the global weathersat/weather forecasting services, so there's no chance they'd ever lack for wind (they'd just navigate by where the wind is/is going to be when they get there.) I see no reason why a sailing ship shouldn't be almost fully autonomous (modulo docking/harbour operations) and capable of hitting highly-predictable schedules. We might need more of them if we have to make them much smaller than today's container vessels, but I guess we might be able to live with that if they cost much less to run. [*] about 45 years... ;)