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My theory is this is also why Lisp never took off. Powerful macros are wonderful for the solo programmer but difficult for a large team to reason about.

by klipt 4y ago

eointierney 4y ago
Programmers are not Computer Scientists, and the world is poorer for their conceit.
no_wizard 4y ago
I think this is a tooling problem, as far as LISPs go, because unlike C, you (as far as I remember, perhaps I'm wrong) aren't relying on the compiler to fill in the bits, the macro is just a shortcut, if you will, to functionality. Not always transparent, but it should be solved with correct tooling. I think the bigger problem was LISP was far too long tied to LISP Machines, rather than being able to run independently on any hardware, which helped C and Pascal gain traction early
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Lisp itself precedes the Lisp Machines for about 20 years, and was available in UNIX workstations as well, in fact that is where Allegro Common Lisp started.
  - kazinator 4y ago
    Lisp wasn't necessarily tied to specific hardware, like Lisp machines, but to powerful hardware with lots of RAM and processing power. The "Unix workstation" of the 1980's was about the most powerful, expensive machine you could get your hands on that still qualified as a microcomputer. No wonder they got some sort of industrial Lisp to fit on it. Unix ran on a lot less than that before that; what sort of Lisp was there for V7 Unix on a PDP-11, and what were its applications?
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      PDP-11 could hardly run something like Multics or VMS, adopted a programming language whose genesis was to Bootstrap CPL compiler, let alone having a Lisp.
CalebJohn 4y ago
You're not the only one, "The Lisp Curse"[1] essentially says the same thing (but spends a lot more time praising/criticizing the "lisp hacker"). > The expressive power of Lisp has drawbacks. There is no such thing as a free lunch. > - The Lisp Curse [1]: http://winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html http://winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
- kazinator 4y ago
  The author of Lisp Curse had no experience with Lisp even in solo work, let alone in a team of two or more people. It's purely made up stuff.
kazinator 4y ago
Lisp absolutely took off and had a heyday. We are decades past "peak Lisp". Lisp grew in capability and complexity at a voracious pace and required expensive, powerful hardware, always at the edge of the hardware envelope. Then microcomputers happened, featuring the power and speed of big iron machines from 15-20 years prior. Almost no software survived the transition from big iron to microcomputers. Pretty much no operating system, and few programming languages or applications---everything was "rebooted". Microcomputers went through their own cultural evolution, with entirely new software. Customers were buying microcomputers, including lots of new customers that didn't have computers before, and you couldn't sell them software that wouldn't run (or fit) onto those. Simple as that; nothing to do with macros. (Unix jumped to microcomputers because it was a lean, resource-efficient minicomputer operating system; the lag between micros becoming as powerful as minis was not as great (decade or so) and basically dove tailed with the Unix timeline. Unix was ready just as micros were becoming ready.) If it was about macros, we wouldn't be talking about Lisp; it would be entirely dead. HackerNews would be in written in Paul Graham's small dialect of PL/I or something, which would still be here due to not confusing anyone with macros.
ahefner 4y ago
People keep saying this (especially here, lately) but it's a nonsense strawman argument. People can do stupid and sufficiently unreadable things in any language. Further, at sufficient scale - a large, long lived proprietary codebase - it hardly matters, it becomes the local dialect.

My theory is this is also why Lisp never took off. Powerful macros are wonderful for the solo programmer but difficult for a large team to reason about.

by klipt 4y ago

My theory is this is also why Lisp never took off. Powerful macros are wonderful for the solo programmer but difficult for a large team to reason about.

eointierney 4y ago

Programmers are not Computer Scientists, and the world is poorer for their conceit.

no_wizard 4y ago

I think this is a tooling problem, as far as LISPs go, because unlike C, you (as far as I remember, perhaps I'm wrong) aren't relying on the compiler to fill in the bits, the macro is just a shortcut, if you will, to functionality. Not always transparent, but it should be solved with correct tooling. I think the bigger problem was LISP was far too long tied to LISP Machines, rather than being able to run independently on any hardware, which helped C and Pascal gain traction early

pjmlp 4y ago
Lisp itself precedes the Lisp Machines for about 20 years, and was available in UNIX workstations as well, in fact that is where Allegro Common Lisp started.
- kazinator 4y ago
  Lisp wasn't necessarily tied to specific hardware, like Lisp machines, but to powerful hardware with lots of RAM and processing power. The "Unix workstation" of the 1980's was about the most powerful, expensive machine you could get your hands on that still qualified as a microcomputer. No wonder they got some sort of industrial Lisp to fit on it. Unix ran on a lot less than that before that; what sort of Lisp was there for V7 Unix on a PDP-11, and what were its applications?
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    PDP-11 could hardly run something like Multics or VMS, adopted a programming language whose genesis was to Bootstrap CPL compiler, let alone having a Lisp.

CalebJohn 4y ago

You're not the only one, "The Lisp Curse"[1] essentially says the same thing (but spends a lot more time praising/criticizing the "lisp hacker"). > The expressive power of Lisp has drawbacks. There is no such thing as a free lunch. > - The Lisp Curse [1]: http://winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html http://winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html

kazinator 4y ago
The author of Lisp Curse had no experience with Lisp even in solo work, let alone in a team of two or more people. It's purely made up stuff.

kazinator 4y ago

Lisp absolutely took off and had a heyday. We are decades past "peak Lisp". Lisp grew in capability and complexity at a voracious pace and required expensive, powerful hardware, always at the edge of the hardware envelope. Then microcomputers happened, featuring the power and speed of big iron machines from 15-20 years prior. Almost no software survived the transition from big iron to microcomputers. Pretty much no operating system, and few programming languages or applications---everything was "rebooted". Microcomputers went through their own cultural evolution, with entirely new software. Customers were buying microcomputers, including lots of new customers that didn't have computers before, and you couldn't sell them software that wouldn't run (or fit) onto those. Simple as that; nothing to do with macros. (Unix jumped to microcomputers because it was a lean, resource-efficient minicomputer operating system; the lag between micros becoming as powerful as minis was not as great (decade or so) and basically dove tailed with the Unix timeline. Unix was ready just as micros were becoming ready.) If it was about macros, we wouldn't be talking about Lisp; it would be entirely dead. HackerNews would be in written in Paul Graham's small dialect of PL/I or something, which would still be here due to not confusing anyone with macros.

ahefner 4y ago

People keep saying this (especially here, lately) but it's a nonsense strawman argument. People can do stupid and sufficiently unreadable things in any language. Further, at sufficient scale - a large, long lived proprietary codebase - it hardly matters, it becomes the local dialect.