5 ms·

Subjective opinion presented as fact? Say it ain't so.

cassianoleal 4y ago
Weird criticism. If I say that halloumi is better than tofu, do you not assume I'm talking about my personal opinion? Do I need to make it painfully clear that it's my subjective opinion? Taste, as much as readability, are subjective so that can be assumed. Also, if you read the post, you'll have noticed the author is constantly saying "I find this more readable", and engaging the reader with "what do you think?" questions on each point made, which makes it very obvious that they're presenting a personal, subjective view.
- philovivero 4y ago
  > Do I need to make it painfully clear that it's my subjective opinion? Yes. Because a sentence written in the Arial font, as much as I might find that font distasteful, is more readable than the same sentence written by a Captcha-generator. A bubble-sort written in Golang is easier to read than the same bubble-sort written in Brainfuck. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule (I imagine someone who knows Brainfuck, but doesn't know Golang for example), but the rule is very clear in both cases. The clickbait flamewar-inducing headline is saying, essentially, Ruby is the former in the examples I gave, and Python the latter. We're not junior-high students trying to one-up one-another with cute gotchas. We're technical professionals. We should expect higher standards of communication skills from other technical professionals. If you mean "I have a useless opinion that no-one should care about," then state it. If you mean "I have statistical evidence that most technical professionals will be able to comprehend programs written in Ruby better than the same programs written in Python," then state it. But don't expect a good reaction when you say the former, while tricking us into thinking you were saying the latter.
  - anothernewdude 4y ago
    Every sentence said by a person is their opinion. That's what saying things is. Even the "obvious" counter-example, lying, works because every sentence said by a person is their opinion. You couldn't lie if it wasn't.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    > If you mean "I have a useless opinion that no-one should care about," then state it. I don't. People will care about. Not everybody but some will, and that's fine. > We should expect higher standards of communication skills from other technical professionals. Reading comprehension is just as important as writing. I expect my peers to know that an opinion is subjective without me needing to say so. For instance, I would have expected you to not gloss over my last paragraph on the previous post, just as much as I would have expected you to understand, by reading the article, that everything written there is the author's opinion but I guess that wouldn't have been such a good straw man.
klodolph 4y ago
This is a matter of style; we encourage writers to write this way and trust that readers know the difference between fact and opinion. Go through a typical college writing class and the teacher will direct you to delete phrases like “I think” and “I believe” from your writing.
- djbusby 4y ago
  Use the Active Voice.
  - ignurant 4y ago
    New Rails 8 feature? (I’ll see myself out).
- mikkergp 4y ago
  I get this, and I've started to write this way, because it gets a better response; but it feels to me like it's designed to maximize an emotional response and not a cognitive response, and find I have less trust in people who write this way (Which is most things, i get) I do wonder how this style of writing has impacted the psychology of argument, I imagine there are others who read this style of writing and assume it is written in stone or as an objective statement, and not a subjective one. This may just be human nature.
  - arcticfox 4y ago
    I have to say I appreciated but also laughed at the sheer number of the qualifiers you're discussing in your post... "it feels to me", "I find I", "I do wonder", "I imagine", "this may" I find it makes for less combative discussions. So I like it.
    - klodolph 4y ago
      I'd say that these qualifiers are much more useful in informal communication, like HN, and inappropriate for long-form stuff like essays. Essays are longer, more coherent, and denser.
drewcoo 4y ago
The author relies on you, the reader, to exercise thought? Say it ain't so.
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  Maybe the blog post title should then be "Why a Ruby dev finds Ruby more readable than Python". And the post body reads: "Because that's what they're used to." Fin. Roll credits. Personally, I find Python more readable, because I know Python better than Ruby. I don't think there's anything inherently more discoverable about @@ to denote a class field. Python instance fields are all prefaced with self, so a bit of cursory Python learning makes it clear. But yes it feels weird that you can't declare them upfront. (And it gets weirder when using libs like Pydantic where class level fields are used to describe instance fields in (de)serialised objects.) IMO, Java's static keyword is far more discoverable because it's far easier to google. As I discovered when trying to figure out what an @ meant in a TS import statement. But, I'm not writing a blog post about why Java is more readable than Ruby, because that's just, like, my opinion man.
  - voidhorse 4y ago
    Right, but the goal of an essay is typically not to disseminate certified, proven fact beyond all possible dispute. In fact, many essays argue points that are inherently fuzzy—e.g. an essay on your interpretation of your favorite novel will make an argument for your interpretation but it will never prove that it is the one true interpretation of a novel since that’s ridiculous and impossible. Often the goal in writing an essay is to share a personal view or experience, and sometimes to get others to share their thoughts on a topic. For example, if you did write an essay on why Java’s static is better than Ruby’s @, it might lead others to engage with you, share their thoughts, and help you learn more or modulate your own viewpoint as a result. Montaigne, the oft-touted father of the essay as a form of literature, in fact explicitly wrote essays as a means of self-reflection and self-exploration. This isn’t some technical paper coming from a research lab or standards body, it’s someone interested in a particular topic sharing their thoughts on that topic, potentially influencing others and potentially being influenced themselves.
pessimizer 4y ago
You get facts from measuring devices, not people. And even then, when you read the number on the display, or try to figure out if the device is functioning correctly, the facts instantly become opinion again. If it helps you, prefix everything that everyone ever says from now on with "It is my opinion that..." e.g. "it is my opinion that it is 6 o'clock." The "that's just your opinion, man" thing is the only thing I'd like to see as a universally ban-worthy offense on the internet. It's an entirely empty statement that can be made about anyone who said anything, is always a bitter defense against somebody who took the risk of putting themself out there, and shouldn't be seen as anything but a troll. And I'm fully aware that this is my opinion, which is why I said it and not someone else.
voidhorse 4y ago
No. If the author were truly trying to present this as fact there’s be far more remarks against anticipated disputes “pythonistas will say… blah blah blah… but here’s why they’re wrong” or more extreme statements, “it’s an objective truth that… only fools would deny…” The author doesn’t do any of this, in fact the author is barely even arguing a point. It’s pretty clearly an opinion piece. Human beings have been writing like this and differentiating between fact and opinion for centuries. Demanding that all writing be watered down to hedge-laden statements and statistics would land us in a very boring world indeed. People can read, judge, and think for themselves. We don’t all approach literature like computers reading instructions.

Weird criticism. If I say that halloumi is better than tofu, do you not assume I'm talking about my personal opinion? Do I need to make it painfully clear that it's my subjective opinion? Taste, as much as readability, are subjective so that can be assumed. Also, if you read the post, you'll have noticed the author is constantly saying "I find this more readable", and engaging the reader with "what do you think?" questions on each point made, which makes it very obvious that they're presenting a personal, subjective view.

philovivero 4y ago
> Do I need to make it painfully clear that it's my subjective opinion? Yes. Because a sentence written in the Arial font, as much as I might find that font distasteful, is more readable than the same sentence written by a Captcha-generator. A bubble-sort written in Golang is easier to read than the same bubble-sort written in Brainfuck. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule (I imagine someone who knows Brainfuck, but doesn't know Golang for example), but the rule is very clear in both cases. The clickbait flamewar-inducing headline is saying, essentially, Ruby is the former in the examples I gave, and Python the latter. We're not junior-high students trying to one-up one-another with cute gotchas. We're technical professionals. We should expect higher standards of communication skills from other technical professionals. If you mean "I have a useless opinion that no-one should care about," then state it. If you mean "I have statistical evidence that most technical professionals will be able to comprehend programs written in Ruby better than the same programs written in Python," then state it. But don't expect a good reaction when you say the former, while tricking us into thinking you were saying the latter.
- anothernewdude 4y ago
  Every sentence said by a person is their opinion. That's what saying things is. Even the "obvious" counter-example, lying, works because every sentence said by a person is their opinion. You couldn't lie if it wasn't.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  > If you mean "I have a useless opinion that no-one should care about," then state it. I don't. People will care about. Not everybody but some will, and that's fine. > We should expect higher standards of communication skills from other technical professionals. Reading comprehension is just as important as writing. I expect my peers to know that an opinion is subjective without me needing to say so. For instance, I would have expected you to not gloss over my last paragraph on the previous post, just as much as I would have expected you to understand, by reading the article, that everything written there is the author's opinion but I guess that wouldn't have been such a good straw man.

klodolph 4y ago

This is a matter of style; we encourage writers to write this way and trust that readers know the difference between fact and opinion. Go through a typical college writing class and the teacher will direct you to delete phrases like “I think” and “I believe” from your writing.

djbusby 4y ago
Use the Active Voice.
- ignurant 4y ago
  New Rails 8 feature? (I’ll see myself out).
mikkergp 4y ago
I get this, and I've started to write this way, because it gets a better response; but it feels to me like it's designed to maximize an emotional response and not a cognitive response, and find I have less trust in people who write this way (Which is most things, i get) I do wonder how this style of writing has impacted the psychology of argument, I imagine there are others who read this style of writing and assume it is written in stone or as an objective statement, and not a subjective one. This may just be human nature.
- arcticfox 4y ago
  I have to say I appreciated but also laughed at the sheer number of the qualifiers you're discussing in your post... "it feels to me", "I find I", "I do wonder", "I imagine", "this may" I find it makes for less combative discussions. So I like it.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    I'd say that these qualifiers are much more useful in informal communication, like HN, and inappropriate for long-form stuff like essays. Essays are longer, more coherent, and denser.

drewcoo 4y ago

The author relies on you, the reader, to exercise thought? Say it ain't so.

EdwardDiego 4y ago
Maybe the blog post title should then be "Why a Ruby dev finds Ruby more readable than Python". And the post body reads: "Because that's what they're used to." Fin. Roll credits. Personally, I find Python more readable, because I know Python better than Ruby. I don't think there's anything inherently more discoverable about @@ to denote a class field. Python instance fields are all prefaced with self, so a bit of cursory Python learning makes it clear. But yes it feels weird that you can't declare them upfront. (And it gets weirder when using libs like Pydantic where class level fields are used to describe instance fields in (de)serialised objects.) IMO, Java's static keyword is far more discoverable because it's far easier to google. As I discovered when trying to figure out what an @ meant in a TS import statement. But, I'm not writing a blog post about why Java is more readable than Ruby, because that's just, like, my opinion man.
- voidhorse 4y ago
  Right, but the goal of an essay is typically not to disseminate certified, proven fact beyond all possible dispute. In fact, many essays argue points that are inherently fuzzy—e.g. an essay on your interpretation of your favorite novel will make an argument for your interpretation but it will never prove that it is the one true interpretation of a novel since that’s ridiculous and impossible. Often the goal in writing an essay is to share a personal view or experience, and sometimes to get others to share their thoughts on a topic. For example, if you did write an essay on why Java’s static is better than Ruby’s @, it might lead others to engage with you, share their thoughts, and help you learn more or modulate your own viewpoint as a result. Montaigne, the oft-touted father of the essay as a form of literature, in fact explicitly wrote essays as a means of self-reflection and self-exploration. This isn’t some technical paper coming from a research lab or standards body, it’s someone interested in a particular topic sharing their thoughts on that topic, potentially influencing others and potentially being influenced themselves.

pessimizer 4y ago

You get facts from measuring devices, not people. And even then, when you read the number on the display, or try to figure out if the device is functioning correctly, the facts instantly become opinion again. If it helps you, prefix everything that everyone ever says from now on with "It is my opinion that..." e.g. "it is my opinion that it is 6 o'clock." The "that's just your opinion, man" thing is the only thing I'd like to see as a universally ban-worthy offense on the internet. It's an entirely empty statement that can be made about anyone who said anything, is always a bitter defense against somebody who took the risk of putting themself out there, and shouldn't be seen as anything but a troll. And I'm fully aware that this is my opinion, which is why I said it and not someone else.

voidhorse 4y ago

No. If the author were truly trying to present this as fact there’s be far more remarks against anticipated disputes “pythonistas will say… blah blah blah… but here’s why they’re wrong” or more extreme statements, “it’s an objective truth that… only fools would deny…” The author doesn’t do any of this, in fact the author is barely even arguing a point. It’s pretty clearly an opinion piece. Human beings have been writing like this and differentiating between fact and opinion for centuries. Demanding that all writing be watered down to hedge-laden statements and statistics would land us in a very boring world indeed. People can read, judge, and think for themselves. We don’t all approach literature like computers reading instructions.