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You don't think comparing the current defacto standard low-level languages (C/C++) to Rust shines any light on the issue you raised? [1] C/C++ : 6.17% Rust : 0

You don't think comparing the current defacto standard low-level languages (C/C++) to Rust shines any light on the issue you raised? [1] C/C++ : 6.17% Rust : 0.29% This was addressed in one of the linked sources. What would you accept as evidence, then? 1: https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-languages-in-2022/ https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-lang...

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
I think looking only at the number of dev jobs leaves too many potential confounding factors to be useful. For instance, how many C/C++ jobs are actually companies who need those devs to move away from C/C++? What's the overlap? How much of the C/C++ share is maintaining legacy code vs starting new projects? Sure the data says something about it, can we draw any conclusions from it other than precisely the numbers you listed? Not really, not without more detailed data. One thing I would welcome is specifically looking at new sysdev projects over time and what languages they're in. To be clear I'm not taking a view on whether Rust will become the standard. I really don't know, and I've yet to see anything convincing me one way or the other.
- dmix 4y ago
  Devops and web designer (relatively non-programmer jobs) listings also might list Javascript, Python, and Java, also maybe Ruby for Chef. And there's a ton of those job listings. Github repos might be a better source of penetration and use.
moltonel3x 4y ago
Different metrics tell a different story. For example GitHub pull requests [1] are C++: 2.60%, Rust: 2.09%, C: 1.43%, with a clear trend showing Rust ahead of C++ next year. Or you could look at the Stackoverflow survey of languages used among professionals [2], which gives C++: 20.17%, C: 16.7%, Rust: 8.8%, with rust gaining 1-2% each year. There's no best metric, they're all biased, you need to consider a few different ones. Otherwise you won't notice when you've stumbled upon one with with an extreme view. Combining C and C++ in language stats is debatable, they should IMHO be measured separately. When grouped as a language category, "C/C++/Rust" is slowly becoming more common. 1: https://tjpalmer.github.io/languish/#y=pulls&names=c%2B%2B%2Crust%2Cc https://tjpalmer.github.io/languish/#y=pulls&names=c%2B%2B%2... 2: https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-popular-technologies-language-prof https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-popular-technolog...
- cobalt 4y ago
  I assume 1 is pulling only from github.com public projects. Many companies A: don't make their code public, B: probably use github enterprise/other hosted solutions (esp including not git based) 2: Also skews towards a certain demographic
  - moltonel3x 4y ago
    Yes, public github repos, stackoverflow survey respondents, devjobscanner offers, google searches, etc are all skewed in some way. It's very hard to qualify the effect of those biases though: for example how does the public/private repo ratio differ between languages ? Good luck giving a trustworthy answer to that. Apart from looking at lots of different source kinds, one thing that's fairly trustworthy is the trend of a specific language in a specific source. On that topic, looking at the "SO questions" metric of the first link, C and C++ both have a strange regular spike in the last quarter of each year. I attribute that to new CS students flocking to SO at the beginning of their term. Another fun trend to look at is the hourly google searches over a week: the weekdays / workhours spike is much more pronounced for some languages than others.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago

I think looking only at the number of dev jobs leaves too many potential confounding factors to be useful. For instance, how many C/C++ jobs are actually companies who need those devs to move away from C/C++? What's the overlap? How much of the C/C++ share is maintaining legacy code vs starting new projects? Sure the data says something about it, can we draw any conclusions from it other than precisely the numbers you listed? Not really, not without more detailed data. One thing I would welcome is specifically looking at new sysdev projects over time and what languages they're in. To be clear I'm not taking a view on whether Rust will become the standard. I really don't know, and I've yet to see anything convincing me one way or the other.

dmix 4y ago
Devops and web designer (relatively non-programmer jobs) listings also might list Javascript, Python, and Java, also maybe Ruby for Chef. And there's a ton of those job listings. Github repos might be a better source of penetration and use.

moltonel3x 4y ago

Different metrics tell a different story. For example GitHub pull requests [1] are C++: 2.60%, Rust: 2.09%, C: 1.43%, with a clear trend showing Rust ahead of C++ next year. Or you could look at the Stackoverflow survey of languages used among professionals [2], which gives C++: 20.17%, C: 16.7%, Rust: 8.8%, with rust gaining 1-2% each year. There's no best metric, they're all biased, you need to consider a few different ones. Otherwise you won't notice when you've stumbled upon one with with an extreme view. Combining C and C++ in language stats is debatable, they should IMHO be measured separately. When grouped as a language category, "C/C++/Rust" is slowly becoming more common. 1: https://tjpalmer.github.io/languish/#y=pulls&names=c%2B%2B%2Crust%2Cc https://tjpalmer.github.io/languish/#y=pulls&names=c%2B%2B%2... 2: https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-popular-technologies-language-prof https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-popular-technolog...

cobalt 4y ago
I assume 1 is pulling only from github.com public projects. Many companies A: don't make their code public, B: probably use github enterprise/other hosted solutions (esp including not git based) 2: Also skews towards a certain demographic
- moltonel3x 4y ago
  Yes, public github repos, stackoverflow survey respondents, devjobscanner offers, google searches, etc are all skewed in some way. It's very hard to qualify the effect of those biases though: for example how does the public/private repo ratio differ between languages ? Good luck giving a trustworthy answer to that. Apart from looking at lots of different source kinds, one thing that's fairly trustworthy is the trend of a specific language in a specific source. On that topic, looking at the "SO questions" metric of the first link, C and C++ both have a strange regular spike in the last quarter of each year. I attribute that to new CS students flocking to SO at the beginning of their term. Another fun trend to look at is the hourly google searches over a week: the weekdays / workhours spike is much more pronounced for some languages than others.