6 ms·

I have to say, one thing about the U.S. is that there is AC everywhere - even up north. We have AC in elevators, on the busses - everywhere. Europe needs to sta

by papito 4y ago

I have to say, one thing about the U.S. is that there is AC everywhere - even up north. We have AC in elevators, on the busses - everywhere. Europe needs to start adjusting to the new normal of hot, hot summers.

nickv 4y ago
It's a product of America's climate being more extreme on the highs and lows (a product of the jetstream). The one place that doesn't have extreme summers, the PNW, actually has very little AC too.
Majestic121 4y ago
You say this as if it was not one of cause for hot hot summers
- saddlerustle 4y ago
  Air conditioning emits less CO2 than heating. Emissions would be lower if europe was hotter and everyone had AC
  - kingludite 4y ago
    We are under a smog alert atm. "caused by high ozone concentration" https://www.rivm.nl/en/news/smog-alert-in-force-throughout-netherlands-on-tuesday https://www.rivm.nl/en/news/smog-alert-in-force-throughout-n...
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
    Reversible heat pumps, not just AC.
  - bzxcvbn 4y ago
    Air conditioning consumes a ton of energy. About 10% of all electricity consumed worldwide. https://www.iea.org/reports/the-future-of-cooling https://www.iea.org/reports/the-future-of-cooling It emits about 4% of greenhouse gases https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2542435122000940 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S25424... But the volume itself is not meaningful - the gases used by AC units are extremely powerful - up to 750 times the greenhouse effect of CO2. And of course, the AC unit itself heats the city - which is why they get much hotter than the countryside during heat waves, further exacerbating the demand for AC and making the problem even worse. It's a vicious circle. > if europe was hotter How do you suggest achieving that? Other than global warming?
    - RL_Quine 4y ago
      Many refrigerants have a greenhouse effect of literally zero. It’s safe and legal for me to vent my refrigerator because it’s filed with isobutane.
      - bzxcvbn 4y ago
        Good for you, but at least in the US, R600a (isobutane) is not used in AC units. Besides, in the early XXth century, it was okay to vent CFC into the atmosphere. We didn't know that it destroyed the ozone layer. What makes you think that we won't discover something similar about isobutane in a few decades, besides wishful thinking?
        RL_Quine 4y ago
        We study the greenhouse potential of gasses and have found r600a to have a potential of zero, in that it can not be ozone depleting.
    - outworlder 4y ago
      > the gases used by AC units are extremely powerful - up to 750 times the greenhouse effect of CO2. They are sealed systems. They only emit gasses when breached. Or when not properly disposed of. > And of course, the AC unit itself heats the city A few watts - whatever power it requires to operate. Say it uses 1.5kw. That's the max it will heat up the city. It will of course move 4x this amount of heat(maybe more!), being a heat pump. But the 'new' heat is only what's imported by the power grid. The rest of the heat was already in the city. It's also worth noting that it's often quite sunny when it's hot. If you power AC units with sunlight, you are actually not introducing any more heat to the system at all. That sunlight would already hit your city and be converted into heat, if you use some of it to move heat around, you are not increasing the overall heat level.
      - bzxcvbn 4y ago
        > They are sealed systems. They only emit gasses when breached. Or when not properly disposed of. And mechanical devices having leaks is a folklore tale told to scare children? > A few watts - whatever power it requires to operate. Say it uses 1.5kw. That's the max it will heat up the city. Yeah. 1500W. Times the number of AC units in the city. That's what adds up to the temperature difference between the city and the countryside. > If you power AC units with sunlight... ...with a solar panel above your own home, with no inefficiency in the electrical grid, the solar panel, or the AC unit itself. Please, this isn't a high school physics exam, you can't assume that there is no friction or that the AC unit is spherical. This is real life.
  - Mo3 4y ago
    ... if that's true, that's a pretty mind-boggling fact considering what the common bias is.
- kingludite 4y ago
  I read 80% of Texas having air conditioning used as a political argument to ignore the climate.
EUROCARE 4y ago
Yeah indeed, Europe (and the rest of the planet) needs Americans to put the ACs away. Passive cooling is a medieval invention.
kixiQu 4y ago
Are you trying to say American multinationals build their European data centers with less AC than their American data centers?
Hamuko 4y ago
Aren't they adjusting customer thermostats, deferring plant maintenance, appealing people to conserve electricity and warning about blackouts in Texas precisely because AC is everywhere?

by papito 4y ago

nickv 4y ago

It's a product of America's climate being more extreme on the highs and lows (a product of the jetstream). The one place that doesn't have extreme summers, the PNW, actually has very little AC too.

Majestic121 4y ago

You say this as if it was not one of cause for hot hot summers

saddlerustle 4y ago
Air conditioning emits less CO2 than heating. Emissions would be lower if europe was hotter and everyone had AC
- kingludite 4y ago
  We are under a smog alert atm. "caused by high ozone concentration" https://www.rivm.nl/en/news/smog-alert-in-force-throughout-netherlands-on-tuesday https://www.rivm.nl/en/news/smog-alert-in-force-throughout-n...
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
  Reversible heat pumps, not just AC.
- bzxcvbn 4y ago
  Air conditioning consumes a ton of energy. About 10% of all electricity consumed worldwide. https://www.iea.org/reports/the-future-of-cooling https://www.iea.org/reports/the-future-of-cooling It emits about 4% of greenhouse gases https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2542435122000940 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S25424... But the volume itself is not meaningful - the gases used by AC units are extremely powerful - up to 750 times the greenhouse effect of CO2. And of course, the AC unit itself heats the city - which is why they get much hotter than the countryside during heat waves, further exacerbating the demand for AC and making the problem even worse. It's a vicious circle. > if europe was hotter How do you suggest achieving that? Other than global warming?
  - RL_Quine 4y ago
    Many refrigerants have a greenhouse effect of literally zero. It’s safe and legal for me to vent my refrigerator because it’s filed with isobutane.
    - bzxcvbn 4y ago
      Good for you, but at least in the US, R600a (isobutane) is not used in AC units. Besides, in the early XXth century, it was okay to vent CFC into the atmosphere. We didn't know that it destroyed the ozone layer. What makes you think that we won't discover something similar about isobutane in a few decades, besides wishful thinking?
      - RL_Quine 4y ago
        We study the greenhouse potential of gasses and have found r600a to have a potential of zero, in that it can not be ozone depleting.
  - outworlder 4y ago
    > the gases used by AC units are extremely powerful - up to 750 times the greenhouse effect of CO2. They are sealed systems. They only emit gasses when breached. Or when not properly disposed of. > And of course, the AC unit itself heats the city A few watts - whatever power it requires to operate. Say it uses 1.5kw. That's the max it will heat up the city. It will of course move 4x this amount of heat(maybe more!), being a heat pump. But the 'new' heat is only what's imported by the power grid. The rest of the heat was already in the city. It's also worth noting that it's often quite sunny when it's hot. If you power AC units with sunlight, you are actually not introducing any more heat to the system at all. That sunlight would already hit your city and be converted into heat, if you use some of it to move heat around, you are not increasing the overall heat level.
    - bzxcvbn 4y ago
      > They are sealed systems. They only emit gasses when breached. Or when not properly disposed of. And mechanical devices having leaks is a folklore tale told to scare children? > A few watts - whatever power it requires to operate. Say it uses 1.5kw. That's the max it will heat up the city. Yeah. 1500W. Times the number of AC units in the city. That's what adds up to the temperature difference between the city and the countryside. > If you power AC units with sunlight... ...with a solar panel above your own home, with no inefficiency in the electrical grid, the solar panel, or the AC unit itself. Please, this isn't a high school physics exam, you can't assume that there is no friction or that the AC unit is spherical. This is real life.
- Mo3 4y ago
  ... if that's true, that's a pretty mind-boggling fact considering what the common bias is.
kingludite 4y ago
I read 80% of Texas having air conditioning used as a political argument to ignore the climate.

EUROCARE 4y ago

Yeah indeed, Europe (and the rest of the planet) needs Americans to put the ACs away. Passive cooling is a medieval invention.

kixiQu 4y ago

Are you trying to say American multinationals build their European data centers with less AC than their American data centers?

Hamuko 4y ago

Aren't they adjusting customer thermostats, deferring plant maintenance, appealing people to conserve electricity and warning about blackouts in Texas precisely because AC is everywhere?