4 ms·

In a world where both Google/Microsoft are moving towards an OS built with web tech - ChromeOS - EdgeOS I think it is safe to assume that WASM and WebGPU wil

In a world where both Google/Microsoft are moving towards an OS built with web tech - ChromeOS - EdgeOS I think it is safe to assume that WASM and WebGPU will play a big role in the near future I don't understand why it is this underestimated and underappreciated AR content / Games, that'll be huge

pjmlp 4y ago
It is basically Flash, but now it is standard, so everyone is happy. https://adobe-flash.github.io/crossbridge/ https://adobe-flash.github.io/crossbridge/ https://youtu.be/xzyCTt5KLKU https://youtu.be/xzyCTt5KLKU You just needed to wait a decade for the wheel to be reinvented.
- gfodor 4y ago
  This is only approximately true at the engineering level, but at a higher level it’s the exact opposite of true. A widely supported, open standard like this is a fundamentally distinct thing, even if it hypothetically produced the exact same technological capabilities on a process-level. (Which again, these technologies exceed Flash in terms of scope.) I do lament Flash though, because we would have gotten to this exact spot sooner if a better transitionary path was navigated, but more importantly losing the content and skill base of the Flash era was a huge loss.
  - michaelt 4y ago
    Ah yes, modern web technology. A standard so widely supported users can choose between Google Chrome, the Chrome reskin by Microsoft, the Chrome reskin by Apple - and even the privacy-conscious Chrome reskin by Brave. A standard so open any stakeholder can push forward the cutting edge of the standard by proposing features and getting them widely adopted, which for some reason only happens to things invented at Google. It's nothing like Flash - it's much more like OOXML.
    - sp332 4y ago
      Firefox invented and is still leading development of wasm. And Safari is really only distantly related to Chrome these days, their last common ancestor was in 2013. Wasm wasn't even announced until 2015. Safari's JavaScriptCore replaced the JS JIT in 2016, and V8 has had two new compiler pipelines since then.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        After refusing to adopt PNaCL, introduce asm.js, and now with 3% it hardly matters.
    - bialpio 4y ago
      "Chrome reskin by Apple" - what does this refer to?
- jchw 4y ago
  Flash was a closed standard that required proprietary tools to produce for and had a single closed source runtime (that was buggy and had frequent severe security issues.) The web platform has strikingly little in common with Flash, from the top level decisions to the bottom level details. The similarities, are purely superficial. Flash piled on features well after it's heyday. In a lot of cases, it's pretty likely that your first time experiencing some of the more advanced capabilities would be with the web platform equivalent rather than Flash Player. I never got the impression that the sole reason for adding features to the web was just to replace similar Flash functionality; even during Flash's heyday, alternatives to what it had to offer were prevalent at points. The closest I think the web platform comes to actually copying Flash was actually the SVG standard, which has some really peculiar features... Like raw sockets. I think it's hard to deny that that really is something motivated by and for the purpose of competing with Flash. However, if my recollection serves correctly, that was done by Adobe prior to acquiring Macromedia.
- Uehreka 4y ago
  So I clicked that link, saw “open source” and went “Oh crap, there was an open way to write, compile and run Flash and we ditched it?!” But then I read on and realized: No, this is an open source tool to compile C/C++ code to run on Flash, a closed-source runtime. Back in the 2000s when I was a teenager with virtually $0 in personal savings (I had the family computer, but no budget for buying professional software) I wished I could make the kinds of Flash games I played in the browser. The fact that Flash required expensive software (I wasn’t comfortable pirating software until I had my own computer that I could risk on my own) meant I couldn’t participate. I’m admittedly a bit jealous that today’s kids can get a programming environment set up for free (once they have a computer) and make games and whatnot that will run in the browser that they can share with their friends. But deep down I’m happy for them: The world of programming is deeply imperfect, but it’s better than it was when I was growing up, and that is in fact progress.
jabbany 4y ago
> Why it is this underestimated and underappreciated Wait... when has it been underappreciated? Besides things like ChromeOS, many "platform native" apps have moved to become essentially wrappers around web apps. It's pretty safe to say that what was originally built as web technology, has essentially become the modern baseline of cross platform development (HTML/CSS for specifying interface layout, JS for business logic and WASM/WebGPU to take advantage of extra hardware capabilities under a generic wrapper) and it's only natural that more capabilities are desired of it. I think what's lacking right now is more reflection on how to deal with the security and privacy implications in a future where applications are all essentially zero-click installs. WASM has already been used for cryptojacking, it's not that hard to imagine WebGPU being used for that too. The security implications have been the bane of earlier web distribution of code. From ActiveX to Java Applets to Flash, the history of web distribution (and security flaws with them) is a very long one... WebGPU and WASM are not like a camera and microphone where you can just pop up a permission dialog to turn them on/off. In order for them to gain wider adoption (rather than end up being a security liability like Flash), we need to think about how a user may be able to control granular access of these resources for what are essentially untrusted (and opaque) applications.
- mysore 4y ago
  webgpu is already 10x safer than webgl which has been deployed safely in applications with billions of users (google map, etc)
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    How is it 10x more safe? And more importantly, how does it prevent abuse for cryptomining without consent?
  - pid-1 4y ago
    I've also heard it's approved by 9 out of 10 dentists
Uehreka 4y ago
I agree with you on this, but I don’t think it’s being underestimated or underappreciated. WASM comes up in almost every design discussion I have with people where we’re considering doing heavyweight data processing or graphics stuff in the browser. Sure you’ll find a couple doubters here and there (like the “it’s just Flash” person ITT) but overall I feel like these technologies are “correctly rated”.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
nemothekid 4y ago
Wouldn't EdgeOS just be a skin on ChromeOS? It's more likley we will see ChromeOS and iOS
solardev 4y ago
> I don't understand why it is this underestimated and underappreciated AR content / Games, that'll be huge Lol, they've been saying that since 3dfx and VRML and three decades later, still nobody cares. It's just marketing hogwash from desperate executives. Why would it be earth shattering? It's just games. Faster computers. Incremental graphics. Yay? It's nothing revolutionary.

pjmlp 4y ago

It is basically Flash, but now it is standard, so everyone is happy. https://adobe-flash.github.io/crossbridge/ https://adobe-flash.github.io/crossbridge/ https://youtu.be/xzyCTt5KLKU https://youtu.be/xzyCTt5KLKU You just needed to wait a decade for the wheel to be reinvented.

gfodor 4y ago
This is only approximately true at the engineering level, but at a higher level it’s the exact opposite of true. A widely supported, open standard like this is a fundamentally distinct thing, even if it hypothetically produced the exact same technological capabilities on a process-level. (Which again, these technologies exceed Flash in terms of scope.) I do lament Flash though, because we would have gotten to this exact spot sooner if a better transitionary path was navigated, but more importantly losing the content and skill base of the Flash era was a huge loss.
- michaelt 4y ago
  Ah yes, modern web technology. A standard so widely supported users can choose between Google Chrome, the Chrome reskin by Microsoft, the Chrome reskin by Apple - and even the privacy-conscious Chrome reskin by Brave. A standard so open any stakeholder can push forward the cutting edge of the standard by proposing features and getting them widely adopted, which for some reason only happens to things invented at Google. It's nothing like Flash - it's much more like OOXML.
  - sp332 4y ago
    Firefox invented and is still leading development of wasm. And Safari is really only distantly related to Chrome these days, their last common ancestor was in 2013. Wasm wasn't even announced until 2015. Safari's JavaScriptCore replaced the JS JIT in 2016, and V8 has had two new compiler pipelines since then.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      After refusing to adopt PNaCL, introduce asm.js, and now with 3% it hardly matters.
  - bialpio 4y ago
    "Chrome reskin by Apple" - what does this refer to?
jchw 4y ago
Flash was a closed standard that required proprietary tools to produce for and had a single closed source runtime (that was buggy and had frequent severe security issues.) The web platform has strikingly little in common with Flash, from the top level decisions to the bottom level details. The similarities, are purely superficial. Flash piled on features well after it's heyday. In a lot of cases, it's pretty likely that your first time experiencing some of the more advanced capabilities would be with the web platform equivalent rather than Flash Player. I never got the impression that the sole reason for adding features to the web was just to replace similar Flash functionality; even during Flash's heyday, alternatives to what it had to offer were prevalent at points. The closest I think the web platform comes to actually copying Flash was actually the SVG standard, which has some really peculiar features... Like raw sockets. I think it's hard to deny that that really is something motivated by and for the purpose of competing with Flash. However, if my recollection serves correctly, that was done by Adobe prior to acquiring Macromedia.
Uehreka 4y ago
So I clicked that link, saw “open source” and went “Oh crap, there was an open way to write, compile and run Flash and we ditched it?!” But then I read on and realized: No, this is an open source tool to compile C/C++ code to run on Flash, a closed-source runtime. Back in the 2000s when I was a teenager with virtually $0 in personal savings (I had the family computer, but no budget for buying professional software) I wished I could make the kinds of Flash games I played in the browser. The fact that Flash required expensive software (I wasn’t comfortable pirating software until I had my own computer that I could risk on my own) meant I couldn’t participate. I’m admittedly a bit jealous that today’s kids can get a programming environment set up for free (once they have a computer) and make games and whatnot that will run in the browser that they can share with their friends. But deep down I’m happy for them: The world of programming is deeply imperfect, but it’s better than it was when I was growing up, and that is in fact progress.

jabbany 4y ago

> Why it is this underestimated and underappreciated Wait... when has it been underappreciated? Besides things like ChromeOS, many "platform native" apps have moved to become essentially wrappers around web apps. It's pretty safe to say that what was originally built as web technology, has essentially become the modern baseline of cross platform development (HTML/CSS for specifying interface layout, JS for business logic and WASM/WebGPU to take advantage of extra hardware capabilities under a generic wrapper) and it's only natural that more capabilities are desired of it. I think what's lacking right now is more reflection on how to deal with the security and privacy implications in a future where applications are all essentially zero-click installs. WASM has already been used for cryptojacking, it's not that hard to imagine WebGPU being used for that too. The security implications have been the bane of earlier web distribution of code. From ActiveX to Java Applets to Flash, the history of web distribution (and security flaws with them) is a very long one... WebGPU and WASM are not like a camera and microphone where you can just pop up a permission dialog to turn them on/off. In order for them to gain wider adoption (rather than end up being a security liability like Flash), we need to think about how a user may be able to control granular access of these resources for what are essentially untrusted (and opaque) applications.

mysore 4y ago
webgpu is already 10x safer than webgl which has been deployed safely in applications with billions of users (google map, etc)
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  How is it 10x more safe? And more importantly, how does it prevent abuse for cryptomining without consent?
- pid-1 4y ago
  I've also heard it's approved by 9 out of 10 dentists

Uehreka 4y ago

I agree with you on this, but I don’t think it’s being underestimated or underappreciated. WASM comes up in almost every design discussion I have with people where we’re considering doing heavyweight data processing or graphics stuff in the browser. Sure you’ll find a couple doubters here and there (like the “it’s just Flash” person ITT) but overall I feel like these technologies are “correctly rated”.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

nemothekid 4y ago

Wouldn't EdgeOS just be a skin on ChromeOS? It's more likley we will see ChromeOS and iOS

solardev 4y ago

> I don't understand why it is this underestimated and underappreciated AR content / Games, that'll be huge Lol, they've been saying that since 3dfx and VRML and three decades later, still nobody cares. It's just marketing hogwash from desperate executives. Why would it be earth shattering? It's just games. Faster computers. Incremental graphics. Yay? It's nothing revolutionary.