4 ms·

Is this legal in the United States? If these listings constitute "housing" then you may fall afoul of HUD regulations[1] regarding discriminating against anyone

Is this legal in the United States? If these listings constitute "housing" then you may fall afoul of HUD regulations[1] regarding discriminating against anyone regardless of sexual orientation. i.e., if I am straight you may not be able to prevent me from using your platform to acquire housing. I'm curious to know what advice you've gotten from your lawyer on this. [1] https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/housing_discrimination_and_persons_identifying_lgbtq https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/h... > The Fair Housing Act prohibits housing and housing-related discrimination because of race, color, national origin, religion, sex (including gender identity and sexual orientation), familial status, and disability.

Pfhortune 4y ago
They aren't providing housing, merely connecting people to find common housing. By your logic, craigslist would have been crushed ages ago.
- nathanaldensr 4y ago
  I didn't provide logic; I only asked a question. The legal system tends not to be that cut-and-dry. I don't know the answer as I am not a lawyer.
- dehrmann 4y ago
  Craigslist gets some protections from Section 230. Meta, on the other hand, recently settled a suit that its ad targeting allows advertisers to discriminate[1] (full disclosure, I work for Meta, but my views are my own). Because this website is a tool with the specific purpose of discriminatory housing (vs Meta's general-purpose ad targeting), I'd be very careful. 1. https://www.engadget.com/meta-housing-discrimination-settlement-191710885.html https://www.engadget.com/meta-housing-discrimination-settlem...
  - klyrs 4y ago
    First off, much of the conversation is about the US, and the site appears to only support listings in the UK. > Find your next LGBT+ friendly household I don't see this as discriminatory. Likewise, if somebody made a site for wheelchair-accessible apartments, that wouldn't be discriminatory either.
    - SoftTalker 4y ago
      So basically, segregation is OK when it's self-selected and not imposed?
      - bombcar 4y ago
        No, he's saying that focusing on a feature of the supply is non-discriminatory. The difference between making a site that only lists housing with wheelchair ramps and a site that only rents to those with wheelchairs.
        klyrs 4y ago
        she
      - klyrs 4y ago
        This website is specifically for flatmates that won't discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. If you think that's segregation, then yeah, that's OK.
    - dehrmann 4y ago
      That tagline is a good point, but it might also be said with a wink and the implication that you should really be LGBT+, yourself.
  - Pfhortune 4y ago
    First of all, IANAL. EDIT: Oh yeah, I guess this is UK only. In any case, I don't see why an equivalent US site would run afoul. Like craigslist, this site is entirely user-generated listings, and I imagine it gets the same 230 protections. > Because this website is a tool with the specific purpose of discriminatory housing It is not. It is a tool to connect people to be roommates together. No housing nor product is provided by the site at all. It is not a platform that targets advertising nor enables targeting advertising to protected groups.
    - dehrmann 4y ago
      Also not a lawyer, and I'll speak to the what could happen in the US, not the UK. I don't think a judge would buy your argument. The Pirate Bay has "user-generated listings" and doesn't offer pirated content, itself. It even has legitimate uses. It's still primarily for piracy. From Grokster[1]: > We hold that one who distributes a device with the object of promoting its use to infringe copyright, as shown by clear expression or other affirmative steps taken to foster infringement, is liable for the resulting acts of infringement by third parties. I'd argue that this is essentially the same. Craigslist gets a pass because its housing posts are generic, so HUD violations are entirely on the poster. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_Studios,_Inc._v._Grokster,_Ltd.#Opinion_of_the_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_Studios,_Inc._v._Grokster,...
carbadtraingood 4y ago
You have a LOT more legal latitude in selecting a roommate than selecting a tenant. Landlords have limited ability to choose tenants, but you are free to choose what roommates you want.
uoaei 4y ago
- nathanaldensr 4y ago
  As I replied to someone else, I am simply asking a question. I am not a lawyer and I don't know what constitutes "housing" for the purposes of HUD regulation.
  - cato_the_elder 4y ago
    Their comment is explicitly against HN guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html): > Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. You don't need to respond to it, flagging will do.
fmitchell0 4y ago
How is a site helping LGBTQ people discriminate against straight people? It clearly states it is targeting people who want to live or post a LGTBQ+ friendly place.
- malwarebytess 4y ago
  "How does a site for helping White people, discriminate against non-White people? It clearly states it is targeting people who want to live or post in a White friendly place."
  - progman32 4y ago
    "How does a site for helping Black people, discriminate against non-Black people? It clearly states it is targeting people who want to live or post in a Black friendly place." :) I think the key word is "friendly" not "exclusive".
    - OJFord 4y ago
      It just makes it sound like you want it to be exclusive doesn't it? How many black people are going to feel comfortable in a 'white friendly place'? It's kind of 'you don't belong here' in the most explicit but not threatening way possible. If I (white) saw 'black friendly cafe' or something, I don't have a problem with that to be clear, but I would absolutely assume that I'm not exactly welcome, that it's intended to serve that community - as in perhaps even specific to a particular country/region people are from (or have heritage) locally. If what you want is actually a hyper-inclusive mix, I don't really know what you can actively do, but I do think you need to not mention any particular groups or categorise people like that.
      - arroz 4y ago
        The website is not discriminatory but I see what you are saying In a perfect world, the best thing for inclusivity is that nothing is said Sadly we don’t live in a perfect world and many LGBT people don’t feel safe
adrien248 4y ago
Hi Nathanaldensr, All sexualities and genders are welcome to our platform, including heterosexual people. If you create a listing (for a room or to show interest to find a room) there is the option for heterosexuals :) We just provide a bridge to create a safe place for the community :)
matthewmacleod 4y ago
Well, this is a UK-based site, so it doesn't seem particularly relevant. But the answer is 'yes'. First, the site advertises LGBT+-friendly housing – it does not appear to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. Fortunately, "LGBT+-unfriendly" is not a protected class. Second, the FHA does not apply to shared living units – see https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/property/property-keyed-to-sprankling/leasing-real-property/fair-housing-council-of-san-fernando-valley-v-roommate-com-llc/ https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/property/property-keyed-... IANAL or even an American for that matter.
rayiner 4y ago
The Fair Housing Act by its terms doesn’t apply to rentals below four units, and at least one federal appellate court has determined it doesn’t apply to roommate selection: https://sharinghousing.com/what-the-fair-housing-act-means-to-you-in-a-housemate-situation/ https://sharinghousing.com/what-the-fair-housing-act-means-t... There’s a fundamental tension between certain non-discrimination laws and freedom of association. The more intimate the association in question (with roommate selection being much more intimate than leasing in a large apartment building) the stronger the interest in freedom of association.
- BLO716 4y ago
  What's great about the Constitution and legislation of fair and equitable treatment of others, it has scales of economy always considered. It's like you can party, just don't party SO hard it irritates your neighbors. :) I really like the context here and thanks for sharing something I almost did before I saw your post.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> if I am straight you may not be able to prevent me from using your platform to acquire housing. Nothing on the site suggests any restrictions on who uses it. Also, all the autocomplete suggestions seems to be in the UK.

Pfhortune 4y ago

They aren't providing housing, merely connecting people to find common housing. By your logic, craigslist would have been crushed ages ago.

nathanaldensr 4y ago
I didn't provide logic; I only asked a question. The legal system tends not to be that cut-and-dry. I don't know the answer as I am not a lawyer.
dehrmann 4y ago
Craigslist gets some protections from Section 230. Meta, on the other hand, recently settled a suit that its ad targeting allows advertisers to discriminate[1] (full disclosure, I work for Meta, but my views are my own). Because this website is a tool with the specific purpose of discriminatory housing (vs Meta's general-purpose ad targeting), I'd be very careful. 1. https://www.engadget.com/meta-housing-discrimination-settlement-191710885.html https://www.engadget.com/meta-housing-discrimination-settlem...
- klyrs 4y ago
  First off, much of the conversation is about the US, and the site appears to only support listings in the UK. > Find your next LGBT+ friendly household I don't see this as discriminatory. Likewise, if somebody made a site for wheelchair-accessible apartments, that wouldn't be discriminatory either.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    So basically, segregation is OK when it's self-selected and not imposed?
    - bombcar 4y ago
      No, he's saying that focusing on a feature of the supply is non-discriminatory. The difference between making a site that only lists housing with wheelchair ramps and a site that only rents to those with wheelchairs.
      - klyrs 4y ago
        she
    - klyrs 4y ago
      This website is specifically for flatmates that won't discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. If you think that's segregation, then yeah, that's OK.
  - dehrmann 4y ago
    That tagline is a good point, but it might also be said with a wink and the implication that you should really be LGBT+, yourself.
- Pfhortune 4y ago
  First of all, IANAL. EDIT: Oh yeah, I guess this is UK only. In any case, I don't see why an equivalent US site would run afoul. Like craigslist, this site is entirely user-generated listings, and I imagine it gets the same 230 protections. > Because this website is a tool with the specific purpose of discriminatory housing It is not. It is a tool to connect people to be roommates together. No housing nor product is provided by the site at all. It is not a platform that targets advertising nor enables targeting advertising to protected groups.
  - dehrmann 4y ago
    Also not a lawyer, and I'll speak to the what could happen in the US, not the UK. I don't think a judge would buy your argument. The Pirate Bay has "user-generated listings" and doesn't offer pirated content, itself. It even has legitimate uses. It's still primarily for piracy. From Grokster[1]: > We hold that one who distributes a device with the object of promoting its use to infringe copyright, as shown by clear expression or other affirmative steps taken to foster infringement, is liable for the resulting acts of infringement by third parties. I'd argue that this is essentially the same. Craigslist gets a pass because its housing posts are generic, so HUD violations are entirely on the poster. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_Studios,_Inc._v._Grokster,_Ltd.#Opinion_of_the_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_Studios,_Inc._v._Grokster,...

carbadtraingood 4y ago

You have a LOT more legal latitude in selecting a roommate than selecting a tenant. Landlords have limited ability to choose tenants, but you are free to choose what roommates you want.

uoaei 4y ago

nathanaldensr 4y ago
As I replied to someone else, I am simply asking a question. I am not a lawyer and I don't know what constitutes "housing" for the purposes of HUD regulation.
- cato_the_elder 4y ago
  Their comment is explicitly against HN guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html): > Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. You don't need to respond to it, flagging will do.

fmitchell0 4y ago

How is a site helping LGBTQ people discriminate against straight people? It clearly states it is targeting people who want to live or post a LGTBQ+ friendly place.

malwarebytess 4y ago
"How does a site for helping White people, discriminate against non-White people? It clearly states it is targeting people who want to live or post in a White friendly place."
- progman32 4y ago
  "How does a site for helping Black people, discriminate against non-Black people? It clearly states it is targeting people who want to live or post in a Black friendly place." :) I think the key word is "friendly" not "exclusive".
  - OJFord 4y ago
    It just makes it sound like you want it to be exclusive doesn't it? How many black people are going to feel comfortable in a 'white friendly place'? It's kind of 'you don't belong here' in the most explicit but not threatening way possible. If I (white) saw 'black friendly cafe' or something, I don't have a problem with that to be clear, but I would absolutely assume that I'm not exactly welcome, that it's intended to serve that community - as in perhaps even specific to a particular country/region people are from (or have heritage) locally. If what you want is actually a hyper-inclusive mix, I don't really know what you can actively do, but I do think you need to not mention any particular groups or categorise people like that.
    - arroz 4y ago
      The website is not discriminatory but I see what you are saying In a perfect world, the best thing for inclusivity is that nothing is said Sadly we don’t live in a perfect world and many LGBT people don’t feel safe

adrien248 4y ago

Hi Nathanaldensr, All sexualities and genders are welcome to our platform, including heterosexual people. If you create a listing (for a room or to show interest to find a room) there is the option for heterosexuals :) We just provide a bridge to create a safe place for the community :)

matthewmacleod 4y ago

Well, this is a UK-based site, so it doesn't seem particularly relevant. But the answer is 'yes'. First, the site advertises LGBT+-friendly housing – it does not appear to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. Fortunately, "LGBT+-unfriendly" is not a protected class. Second, the FHA does not apply to shared living units – see https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/property/property-keyed-to-sprankling/leasing-real-property/fair-housing-council-of-san-fernando-valley-v-roommate-com-llc/ https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/property/property-keyed-... IANAL or even an American for that matter.

rayiner 4y ago

The Fair Housing Act by its terms doesn’t apply to rentals below four units, and at least one federal appellate court has determined it doesn’t apply to roommate selection: https://sharinghousing.com/what-the-fair-housing-act-means-to-you-in-a-housemate-situation/ https://sharinghousing.com/what-the-fair-housing-act-means-t... There’s a fundamental tension between certain non-discrimination laws and freedom of association. The more intimate the association in question (with roommate selection being much more intimate than leasing in a large apartment building) the stronger the interest in freedom of association.

BLO716 4y ago
What's great about the Constitution and legislation of fair and equitable treatment of others, it has scales of economy always considered. It's like you can party, just don't party SO hard it irritates your neighbors. :) I really like the context here and thanks for sharing something I almost did before I saw your post.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> if I am straight you may not be able to prevent me from using your platform to acquire housing. Nothing on the site suggests any restrictions on who uses it. Also, all the autocomplete suggestions seems to be in the UK.