5 ms·

Nobody knows if it was just general erratic behaviour by the green party or just general hatred and jealousy towards the french. It was neither. The German pla

by blfr 4y ago

Nobody knows if it was just general erratic behaviour by the green party or just general hatred and jealousy towards the french. It was neither. The German plan was to leverage "green" Russian gas for control over the EU. As usual, the grand German plan has ended with the continent on fire.

cinntaile 4y ago
Or they needed the gas for their industry and to heat themselves during winter, whichever is more reasonable.
JacobThreeThree 4y ago
If anything, I would speculate that it was the effectiveness of Russian gas lobbyists after Fukushima, convincing Germany to decommission all their nuclear power plants.
- letier 4y ago
  One would think so, but the problem lies on the other side: https://www.dw.com/en/russian-gas-in-germany-a-complicated-50-year-relationship/a-61057166 https://www.dw.com/en/russian-gas-in-germany-a-complicated-5... Unfortunately i can’t find a non amp/mobile link…
  - JacobThreeThree 4y ago
    Interesting article, good to know the historical context.
    - rasz 4y ago
      For full historical context is best to also learn this: "expectation of eventual territorial expansion to the Baltic countries, Finland and Poland, with the approval of either the Western powers or Germany" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin's_speech_of_19_August_1939 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin's_speech_of_19_August_1... German–Soviet Trade and Credit Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Credit_Agreement_(1939) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Credit_A... "In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narew, Vistula, and San." "With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia (Moldova & Ukraine). The German side declares its complete political disinterestedness in these areas." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_relations,_1918%E2%80%931941#Pact_and_commercial_deal_signings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_r...
bakuninsbart 4y ago
This reads like part of the comment section on a British tabloid. The german government took a stance against both nuclear and gas being labelled as "green", transitional sources of energy. Within the government, the SPD was in favor of Gas but not nuclear, the FDP was in favor of both, and the Greens were in favor of neither.Overall it doesn't fucking matter, because it was a vote in the European Parliament, an independent institution.
the_third_wave 4y ago
Is is also due to the German 'green' party - Die Grünen - having grown out of and on the base of their resistance against nuclear power. Atomkraft? Nein danke ('Nuclear power? No thanks') together with the 'smiling sun logo' [1] have become so engrained in this organisation that it is comparable to sacrilege for 'greens' to acknowledge that they were wrong on this issue. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Atomkraft-Bewegung_in_Deutschland#/media/Datei:Atomkraft_Nein_Danke.svg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Atomkraft-Bewegung_in_Deu...
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  Partially true, they weren't wrong that nuclear isn't a good option though.
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    It is one of the best options available given the limitations of the area. Germany does not have the geography for large-scale hydropower like e.g. Norway does, it does not have large-scale access to geothermal energy sources like Iceland does, it does not have access to reliable wind like actually not that many places have - where 'reliable' stands for 'does not stop when you need it'. It does not have access to large deposits of natural gas like the Netherlands once did and Russia still does. What Germany does have is coal of varying qualities, much of it on the lower end of the quality scale. More importantly, what Germany does have is a tradition of engineering excellence which is just the thing needed to design and build effective nuclear power infrastructure. France succeeded here so I see no reason why Germany could not if they only managed to convince - or push aside - the remaining recalcitrant 'green' politicos.
    - raxxorraxor 4y ago
      Germany also doesn't have Uranium either. Nuclear power plants are simply not competitive. Part of that is due to legal security requirements. But they need fuel and cooling to work. They need to be rebuild regularly and the storage question is not solved. There is a lack infrastructure and energy storage, this is why Germany exports power to other countries who have them, but solving these issues are a better strategy than new nuclear plants. Nuclear power will not help fighting climate change and it is simply too expensive compared to other renewable sources. That is the opinion of leading engineers too and exceptionally widely spread.
tommit 4y ago
Ngl I cannot decide whether this reads slightly ignorant or xenophobic.

by blfr 4y ago

cinntaile 4y ago

Or they needed the gas for their industry and to heat themselves during winter, whichever is more reasonable.

JacobThreeThree 4y ago

If anything, I would speculate that it was the effectiveness of Russian gas lobbyists after Fukushima, convincing Germany to decommission all their nuclear power plants.

letier 4y ago
One would think so, but the problem lies on the other side: https://www.dw.com/en/russian-gas-in-germany-a-complicated-50-year-relationship/a-61057166 https://www.dw.com/en/russian-gas-in-germany-a-complicated-5... Unfortunately i can’t find a non amp/mobile link…
- JacobThreeThree 4y ago
  Interesting article, good to know the historical context.
  - rasz 4y ago
    For full historical context is best to also learn this: "expectation of eventual territorial expansion to the Baltic countries, Finland and Poland, with the approval of either the Western powers or Germany" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin's_speech_of_19_August_1939 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin's_speech_of_19_August_1... German–Soviet Trade and Credit Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Credit_Agreement_(1939) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Credit_A... "In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narew, Vistula, and San." "With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia (Moldova & Ukraine). The German side declares its complete political disinterestedness in these areas." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_relations,_1918%E2%80%931941#Pact_and_commercial_deal_signings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_r...

bakuninsbart 4y ago

This reads like part of the comment section on a British tabloid. The german government took a stance against both nuclear and gas being labelled as "green", transitional sources of energy. Within the government, the SPD was in favor of Gas but not nuclear, the FDP was in favor of both, and the Greens were in favor of neither.Overall it doesn't fucking matter, because it was a vote in the European Parliament, an independent institution.

the_third_wave 4y ago

Is is also due to the German 'green' party - Die Grünen - having grown out of and on the base of their resistance against nuclear power. Atomkraft? Nein danke ('Nuclear power? No thanks') together with the 'smiling sun logo' [1] have become so engrained in this organisation that it is comparable to sacrilege for 'greens' to acknowledge that they were wrong on this issue. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Atomkraft-Bewegung_in_Deutschland#/media/Datei:Atomkraft_Nein_Danke.svg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Atomkraft-Bewegung_in_Deu...

raxxorraxor 4y ago
Partially true, they weren't wrong that nuclear isn't a good option though.
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  It is one of the best options available given the limitations of the area. Germany does not have the geography for large-scale hydropower like e.g. Norway does, it does not have large-scale access to geothermal energy sources like Iceland does, it does not have access to reliable wind like actually not that many places have - where 'reliable' stands for 'does not stop when you need it'. It does not have access to large deposits of natural gas like the Netherlands once did and Russia still does. What Germany does have is coal of varying qualities, much of it on the lower end of the quality scale. More importantly, what Germany does have is a tradition of engineering excellence which is just the thing needed to design and build effective nuclear power infrastructure. France succeeded here so I see no reason why Germany could not if they only managed to convince - or push aside - the remaining recalcitrant 'green' politicos.
  - raxxorraxor 4y ago
    Germany also doesn't have Uranium either. Nuclear power plants are simply not competitive. Part of that is due to legal security requirements. But they need fuel and cooling to work. They need to be rebuild regularly and the storage question is not solved. There is a lack infrastructure and energy storage, this is why Germany exports power to other countries who have them, but solving these issues are a better strategy than new nuclear plants. Nuclear power will not help fighting climate change and it is simply too expensive compared to other renewable sources. That is the opinion of leading engineers too and exceptionally widely spread.

tommit 4y ago

Ngl I cannot decide whether this reads slightly ignorant or xenophobic.