4 ms·

You can quibble about why so many on the right and the center are insulated from the harm, but that demonstrates that people don't want to discuss the intended

by fundad 4y ago

You can quibble about why so many on the right and the center are insulated from the harm, but that demonstrates that people don't want to discuss the intended harmful outcome of these state laws that will go national via SCOTUS or when a Republican takes power again. It's totally reasonable to be disgusted at how convinced people can be that the conservative project won't come at us with a dangerous national abortion ban with no exceptions and then come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex.

throwaway894345 4y ago
> It's totally reasonable to be disgusted at how convinced people can be that the conservative project won't come at us with a dangerous national abortion ban with no exceptions and then come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex. I don't think it's reasonable at all, because I think you're dealing in a particularly exaggerated caricature of Republicans (you're parroting all of the talking points from the most detached left-wing "media outlets"). Notably, 55% of Republicans support gay marriage in 2022 per Gallup--the idea that they're "coming for gay marriage" is ridiculous. Moreover, "what your kids learn" is something everyone is concerned about and have been concerned about for the last 50 years (recall it used to be the left that pushed back against indoctrination of children in schools). This is just baseless moral panic / hyperventilation, and its only function is to spread hate and division.
- fundad 4y ago
  State laws passed by elected Republicans are not media. These bans existed in law not too long ago in this country not just in media. We just saw the Texas law and the intended SCOTUS decision fulfill the 2016 GOP campaign promise. There is no reason to believe the desired outcome goes no further than the Dobbs decision. And it would be easy for elected Rs and R candidates to fight division by saying they won't come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex. Yes I want to create division between people who evaluate the movement on its desired outcomes and see the harm and people who think the US is exceptional and wouldn't use the law in immoral ways. And I didn't say they're "coming for gay marriage", I referenced mixed marriage as "who you can marry." But it won't stop at gay marriage either, the right to be openly gay or trans is what they're coming for and people should know that.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    > There is no reason to believe the desired outcome goes no further than the Dobbs decision. Republicans definitely have an agenda, but there's not broad support among them for eliminating gay marriage (55% of Republicans support gay marriage per Gallup 2022) or mixed marriage (only 12% of Republicans believe interracial marriage is a social ill per Pew 2017). The view that Republicans are coming for interracial marriage, gay marriage, etc is just more of the same baseless hysteria that has characterized left-wing media for the last decade (and I'm not a conservative or otherwise right-wing, so please spare me the "the right wing media is also bad/worse!" stuff because I already agree).
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      I just don’t understand how you can say it is baseless left wing hysteria when powerful and influential Republicans are literally saying they want to do exactly that. That is the basis. If republicans weren’t saying they want to come after gay marriage, no one would be worried. But they are. Baseless would be saying that Democrats want to come after gay marriage. Obviously there is no basis for that statement. But when powerful Republicans literally say exactly that they want to end gay marriage, it forms the basis for concerns that they will follow through. Just last month the Texas Republican Party had a convention and declared “homosexuality is an abnormal lifestyle choice”, which sets the debate about homosexuality back decades. What about the Texas Republican Party platform is left wing media hysteria? What about the position that homosexuality is “abnormal” signals to you that Republicans aren’t coming after gay rights? We’re not talking about a single justice or senator here; we are talking about a state party platform, in a state controlled entirely by that party.
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        Well, groups are made up of large numbers of people, so we can’t understand the direction of those groups by looking at the opinions of those groups by looking at a relative handful of people (or rather, we can via polling, but that’s not what you’re describing). Anyway, “abnormal lifestyle choice” isn’t a “decades” setback. Homosexuality has only been mainstream for a little more than a decade, and even then about half of Republicans have opposed it. Honestly, people who are so concerned should focus on making the Democrats electable again, because we’ve tried enormous amounts of left-wing spin from every epistemological institution and all manner of divisiveness and that hasn’t worked particularly well so far.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > the idea that they're "coming for gay marriage" is ridiculous. It would be less ridiculous if a conservative Supreme Court Justice and a Republican US Senator hadn't just expressed their intention to do just that. No one would be worried about the prospect if the party wasn't explicitly telegraphing the desire to come after these rights. Pretending that these concerns are ridiculous is to pretend that what Supreme Court Justices and US Senators say has no weight. In fact, they have power and they've proven they are not afraid to use it.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    Sometimes there are different opinions within a party, and the opinion of one Republican (and a conservative) isn't indicative of the entire party. > Pretending I'm definitely not pretending.

by fundad 4y ago

throwaway894345 4y ago

> It's totally reasonable to be disgusted at how convinced people can be that the conservative project won't come at us with a dangerous national abortion ban with no exceptions and then come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex. I don't think it's reasonable at all, because I think you're dealing in a particularly exaggerated caricature of Republicans (you're parroting all of the talking points from the most detached left-wing "media outlets"). Notably, 55% of Republicans support gay marriage in 2022 per Gallup--the idea that they're "coming for gay marriage" is ridiculous. Moreover, "what your kids learn" is something everyone is concerned about and have been concerned about for the last 50 years (recall it used to be the left that pushed back against indoctrination of children in schools). This is just baseless moral panic / hyperventilation, and its only function is to spread hate and division.

fundad 4y ago
State laws passed by elected Republicans are not media. These bans existed in law not too long ago in this country not just in media. We just saw the Texas law and the intended SCOTUS decision fulfill the 2016 GOP campaign promise. There is no reason to believe the desired outcome goes no further than the Dobbs decision. And it would be easy for elected Rs and R candidates to fight division by saying they won't come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex. Yes I want to create division between people who evaluate the movement on its desired outcomes and see the harm and people who think the US is exceptional and wouldn't use the law in immoral ways. And I didn't say they're "coming for gay marriage", I referenced mixed marriage as "who you can marry." But it won't stop at gay marriage either, the right to be openly gay or trans is what they're coming for and people should know that.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  > There is no reason to believe the desired outcome goes no further than the Dobbs decision. Republicans definitely have an agenda, but there's not broad support among them for eliminating gay marriage (55% of Republicans support gay marriage per Gallup 2022) or mixed marriage (only 12% of Republicans believe interracial marriage is a social ill per Pew 2017). The view that Republicans are coming for interracial marriage, gay marriage, etc is just more of the same baseless hysteria that has characterized left-wing media for the last decade (and I'm not a conservative or otherwise right-wing, so please spare me the "the right wing media is also bad/worse!" stuff because I already agree).
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    I just don’t understand how you can say it is baseless left wing hysteria when powerful and influential Republicans are literally saying they want to do exactly that. That is the basis. If republicans weren’t saying they want to come after gay marriage, no one would be worried. But they are. Baseless would be saying that Democrats want to come after gay marriage. Obviously there is no basis for that statement. But when powerful Republicans literally say exactly that they want to end gay marriage, it forms the basis for concerns that they will follow through. Just last month the Texas Republican Party had a convention and declared “homosexuality is an abnormal lifestyle choice”, which sets the debate about homosexuality back decades. What about the Texas Republican Party platform is left wing media hysteria? What about the position that homosexuality is “abnormal” signals to you that Republicans aren’t coming after gay rights? We’re not talking about a single justice or senator here; we are talking about a state party platform, in a state controlled entirely by that party.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      Well, groups are made up of large numbers of people, so we can’t understand the direction of those groups by looking at the opinions of those groups by looking at a relative handful of people (or rather, we can via polling, but that’s not what you’re describing). Anyway, “abnormal lifestyle choice” isn’t a “decades” setback. Homosexuality has only been mainstream for a little more than a decade, and even then about half of Republicans have opposed it. Honestly, people who are so concerned should focus on making the Democrats electable again, because we’ve tried enormous amounts of left-wing spin from every epistemological institution and all manner of divisiveness and that hasn’t worked particularly well so far.
ModernMech 4y ago
> the idea that they're "coming for gay marriage" is ridiculous. It would be less ridiculous if a conservative Supreme Court Justice and a Republican US Senator hadn't just expressed their intention to do just that. No one would be worried about the prospect if the party wasn't explicitly telegraphing the desire to come after these rights. Pretending that these concerns are ridiculous is to pretend that what Supreme Court Justices and US Senators say has no weight. In fact, they have power and they've proven they are not afraid to use it.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  Sometimes there are different opinions within a party, and the opinion of one Republican (and a conservative) isn't indicative of the entire party. > Pretending I'm definitely not pretending.