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Overall, it's the most expensive way of producing energy. Long term it is on the way out.

lm28469 4y ago
> expensive Seeing everything through the "how expensive is it" lens is exactly what is making us burn our own planet though. Price should be the least of our concern when we discuss the future of our planet. Money has no value if you can't breath
- freeflight 4y ago
  This is still a venture capital/investment forum, just handwaving away these economic dynamics, without even trying to explain how to replace them, does not really add much to the debate. It's the equivalent of somebody pointing out; "This is too expensive, we can't finance building or running it" and somebody replying with "Money is just invented, it's not real!". As true as that might be philosophically, practically it still doesn't change anything because the practical reality we live in is dominated by economic interests manifested trough money. So if your solution does need massive amounts of money, then you need to explain where they money is supposed to come from, as you can't just "wish" nuclear reactors into existence.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    That's why these things are nationalized and why uber isn't running our nuclear power plants for "hyper growth and exponential profit" Then we can talk about the thousands of lives lost to lung cancers due to coal: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/merkel-says-climate-be-g20-priority-coal-related-deaths/report-germany-suffers-more-coal-linked-deaths-rest-eu https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/merkel-says-climate-be-... How do you price that in ? > then you need to explain where they money is supposed to come from idk, when I see the US spending 8-10 trillion dollar in 20 years in Afghanistan I think money really isn't the problem here, we could have nuclearised the entire West twice over and still have extra, priorities I guess... > as you can't just "wish" nuclear reactors into existence. Yeah but you can wish them out, and wish for solar and wind farms to replace them, too bad these wishes didn't actually work out. Also, electricity is twice as expensive in Germany than in France, always been, and that's just the beginning of the whole coal/gas shitshow that's about to hit in the winter. Germany has the most expensive electricity of the EU zone too.
    - Gwypaas 4y ago
      > That's why these things are nationalized and why uber isn't running our nuclear power plants for "hyper growth and exponential profit" Isn't it something to cherish then that renewables enables precisely that?
      - lm28469 4y ago
        I never cherish when basic needs are handled by greedy capitalists no... Move fast and break things is fine when you develop a mobile app nobody gives a shit about, not when you can raise the heating cost of a family by a factor of 2 whenever you feel like your CEO needs a bonus
    - freeflight 4y ago
      > idk, when I see the US spending 8-10 trillion dollar in 20 years in Afghanistan I think money really isn't the problem here That's American fiscal policy, but we are talking about Germany here, which has way less debt per GDP [0] [1], so for the most part Germany knows how to handle its money and where to best put it. > Yeah but you can wish them out, and wish for solar and wind farms to replace them, too bad these wishes didn't actually work out. Except Germany didn't just "wish", it acted and created the conditions for a renewable boom, to compensate for the long-term fission phaseout, it did that trough the first green electricity feed-in tariff scheme in the world already back in 1991 [2]. That's why Germany nowadays sits on nearly 50% renewables even after shutting down fission reactors; Those reactors were very much mostly replaced by solar and wind [3]. > Also, electricity is twice as expensive in Germany than in France See the aforementioned EEG, that's why electricity, and also gasoline, is so expensive in Germany; There is an extra tax on it that has been used to pioneer the research [4] and deployment of PV and wind before these technologies were adopted widespread globally, thus turning them into the efficient profitable industries they are today. German subsidies paid for that R&D and scaling up part, jut like they were, and still are, a major contributor to where these technologies are today. [0] https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/government-debt-to-gdp https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/government-debt-to-gdp [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-debt-to-gdp https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-debt-t... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renewable_Energy_Sources_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renewable_Energy_Source... [3] https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...
- viktorcode 4y ago
  Yes. But this is how world works. I suggest you to try doing it yourself: get rid of all fossil-fuel based heating and cooking appliances, replace your car with an EV, and maybe set up your own renewable power generation if your area's electricity isn't green. It is all doable, but it is expensive.

> expensive Seeing everything through the "how expensive is it" lens is exactly what is making us burn our own planet though. Price should be the least of our concern when we discuss the future of our planet. Money has no value if you can't breath

freeflight 4y ago
This is still a venture capital/investment forum, just handwaving away these economic dynamics, without even trying to explain how to replace them, does not really add much to the debate. It's the equivalent of somebody pointing out; "This is too expensive, we can't finance building or running it" and somebody replying with "Money is just invented, it's not real!". As true as that might be philosophically, practically it still doesn't change anything because the practical reality we live in is dominated by economic interests manifested trough money. So if your solution does need massive amounts of money, then you need to explain where they money is supposed to come from, as you can't just "wish" nuclear reactors into existence.
- lm28469 4y ago
  That's why these things are nationalized and why uber isn't running our nuclear power plants for "hyper growth and exponential profit" Then we can talk about the thousands of lives lost to lung cancers due to coal: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/merkel-says-climate-be-g20-priority-coal-related-deaths/report-germany-suffers-more-coal-linked-deaths-rest-eu https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/merkel-says-climate-be-... How do you price that in ? > then you need to explain where they money is supposed to come from idk, when I see the US spending 8-10 trillion dollar in 20 years in Afghanistan I think money really isn't the problem here, we could have nuclearised the entire West twice over and still have extra, priorities I guess... > as you can't just "wish" nuclear reactors into existence. Yeah but you can wish them out, and wish for solar and wind farms to replace them, too bad these wishes didn't actually work out. Also, electricity is twice as expensive in Germany than in France, always been, and that's just the beginning of the whole coal/gas shitshow that's about to hit in the winter. Germany has the most expensive electricity of the EU zone too.
  - Gwypaas 4y ago
    > That's why these things are nationalized and why uber isn't running our nuclear power plants for "hyper growth and exponential profit" Isn't it something to cherish then that renewables enables precisely that?
    - lm28469 4y ago
      I never cherish when basic needs are handled by greedy capitalists no... Move fast and break things is fine when you develop a mobile app nobody gives a shit about, not when you can raise the heating cost of a family by a factor of 2 whenever you feel like your CEO needs a bonus
  - freeflight 4y ago
    > idk, when I see the US spending 8-10 trillion dollar in 20 years in Afghanistan I think money really isn't the problem here That's American fiscal policy, but we are talking about Germany here, which has way less debt per GDP [0] [1], so for the most part Germany knows how to handle its money and where to best put it. > Yeah but you can wish them out, and wish for solar and wind farms to replace them, too bad these wishes didn't actually work out. Except Germany didn't just "wish", it acted and created the conditions for a renewable boom, to compensate for the long-term fission phaseout, it did that trough the first green electricity feed-in tariff scheme in the world already back in 1991 [2]. That's why Germany nowadays sits on nearly 50% renewables even after shutting down fission reactors; Those reactors were very much mostly replaced by solar and wind [3]. > Also, electricity is twice as expensive in Germany than in France See the aforementioned EEG, that's why electricity, and also gasoline, is so expensive in Germany; There is an extra tax on it that has been used to pioneer the research [4] and deployment of PV and wind before these technologies were adopted widespread globally, thus turning them into the efficient profitable industries they are today. German subsidies paid for that R&D and scaling up part, jut like they were, and still are, a major contributor to where these technologies are today. [0] https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/government-debt-to-gdp https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/government-debt-to-gdp [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-debt-to-gdp https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-debt-t... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renewable_Energy_Sources_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renewable_Energy_Source... [3] https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...
viktorcode 4y ago
Yes. But this is how world works. I suggest you to try doing it yourself: get rid of all fossil-fuel based heating and cooking appliances, replace your car with an EV, and maybe set up your own renewable power generation if your area's electricity isn't green. It is all doable, but it is expensive.