4 ms·

E-bikes continue their slow march towards convergence with electric motorcycles.

make3 4y ago
the distinction feels somewhat arbitrary. the fact that you can also pedal doesn't make it not a motorcycle. it's just that electric motor take a lot less space so they look less bulky, but the functionality is the same
- brudgers 4y ago
  Being able to pedal can be a legal distinction for a distinct class of vehicles. Particularly in US via the push for mopeds in the 1970's as a response to concern about fuel economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped
- noahtallen 4y ago
  I mean, most US states (but not all) have codified three ebike classes. Class 1 is pedal assist (no throttle) up to 20mph. Class 2 has a throttle up to 20mph. Class 3 is pedal assist (no throttle) up to 28mph. I have a class 3 ebike. The only difference between it and a normal bike is that I don’t have to work as hard to turn the pedals. As a result, I can go up hills easier. And maybe go a couple mph faster than my body would be capable of on a normal bike. But the overall experience is the same as biking. I’m still burning some calories, and going up hills isn’t exactly easy either. It’s a fantastic balance which turns biking from less of a sport and exercise into more of a fun activity. I’m not regularly going anywhere close to 28mph either unless I’m going downhill. It’s very comfortable to pedal at 15mph or so. (E.g. the ebike doesn’t make me feel like I must go fast all the time.) Once you step outside of this class-based system, I’m guessing the law changes pretty drastically. An electric motor on a bike allowing 50mph speeds is probably not treated by law as a bicycle.
deleted 4y ago
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ThePadawan 4y ago
I see both of those (and more) used by way way different groups of people here in Switzerland. - e-bikes up to 45 km/h require a "light motorcycle" license (much like a Vespa does), lights, license plate, and a helmet. They drive (or are ridden? the line gets blurry) on the road like a Vespa. The people on them are generally people that already commuted everywhere by bike, now they just end up less sweaty when they arrive. - e-bikes up to 25 km/h are treated exactly like regular bikes. They're driven by pretty much everyone that wants to afford one - commuters, rich teenagers, grannies, you name it. - I never see electric motorcycles. Every single neither-a-e-bike-nor-an-e-scooter motorcycle is either a Harley Davidson or a sports bike. I know they're not electric because I can hear them both from 3 miles away. - Vespa type scooters are around, but rarely electric. I assume people just keep the ICE ones they already own and switch to something else when those hit EOL. - What's really taken off is electric sit-down scooters. They don't require helmets, are illegal to ride on roads, and lots and lots of 16-25 year olds just ride around on them in the evening every single day. They're styled to look like Harleys etc. to appeal to the rider's ego. It's amazing how they turned "scooters you stand on are for Bay Area dweebs" into "this will make you look so cool, dude!" by adding a seat and trim.
- rngname22 4y ago
  Curious what seated electric scooters you're referring to, any chance you know of a brand or model you could point to as an example? I see popularity with stand up e-scooters as well as e-bikes as well as e-longboards here in NYC, some electric vespa-style scooters, but not sure what you are referring. Any chance it's like the Super 73?
  - ThePadawan 4y ago
    Here's a (apparently non-brand) one: https://www.easymotorswinterthur.ch/produkt/citytwister-6-premium/ https://www.easymotorswinterthur.ch/produkt/citytwister-6-pr... (That one is available in multiple versions, but the base one I linked is the low power category I was talking about)
ActorNightly 4y ago
As they should. There are several ebikes that on throttle can hit close to 50 mph, which is enough for commuting on road ways, while having a low power pedelec mode for regular bike path commuting. This is the perfect solution to public transportation, compared to any other alternative.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  You mean "private transportation"? I'm an avid bike rider, and it's not the lack of a motor that holds me back from promoting it as anything like the "perfect solution" for anything - the reality is bikes do expose you to more danger of getting injured, aren't great in wet weather, and unsuitable for longer distances or when carrying bulky loads. But for any journey that those aren't the primary concerns, regular push bikes are pretty close to perfect. I can see e-bikes being handy in hotter/hillier climates or for riders with physical conditions that exclude them from maintaining the leg strength (and/or aerobic capacity) to provide their own pedal power. I can't help thinking a large number of e-bike riders who are young and able-bodied are eschewing a good opportunity to keep themselves fit.
  - ActorNightly 4y ago
    > the reality is bikes do expose you to more danger of getting injured, aren't great in wet weather, and unsuitable for longer distances or when carrying bulky loads. No I do in fact mean public, because a properly put together pedelec bike is fairly cheap compared to even the cheapest car, and that is the primary driver for a whole lotta people when it comes to transport, especially in urban environments. Its the reason motorcycles are super popular in Europe, where owning a car is more expensive despite the lower danger. Non-ebikes are slow, and require effort to actually pedal, which is out of reach for a lot of people. Stick a motor on it, and suddenly you can get to work in a reasonable time (sometimes faster due to having the ability to go off-road onto paths), and without putting in effort.
    - witheld 4y ago
      A bus is public transportation. A train is public transportation. A bike-share program is, tentatively, public transportation. Price is not a factor here- motorcycles are not public transportation because they are cheap. Bicycles are not public transportation because they are yet cheaper. Personal conveyance is not public transportation.

the distinction feels somewhat arbitrary. the fact that you can also pedal doesn't make it not a motorcycle. it's just that electric motor take a lot less space so they look less bulky, but the functionality is the same

brudgers 4y ago
Being able to pedal can be a legal distinction for a distinct class of vehicles. Particularly in US via the push for mopeds in the 1970's as a response to concern about fuel economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped
noahtallen 4y ago
I mean, most US states (but not all) have codified three ebike classes. Class 1 is pedal assist (no throttle) up to 20mph. Class 2 has a throttle up to 20mph. Class 3 is pedal assist (no throttle) up to 28mph. I have a class 3 ebike. The only difference between it and a normal bike is that I don’t have to work as hard to turn the pedals. As a result, I can go up hills easier. And maybe go a couple mph faster than my body would be capable of on a normal bike. But the overall experience is the same as biking. I’m still burning some calories, and going up hills isn’t exactly easy either. It’s a fantastic balance which turns biking from less of a sport and exercise into more of a fun activity. I’m not regularly going anywhere close to 28mph either unless I’m going downhill. It’s very comfortable to pedal at 15mph or so. (E.g. the ebike doesn’t make me feel like I must go fast all the time.) Once you step outside of this class-based system, I’m guessing the law changes pretty drastically. An electric motor on a bike allowing 50mph speeds is probably not treated by law as a bicycle.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ThePadawan 4y ago

I see both of those (and more) used by way way different groups of people here in Switzerland. - e-bikes up to 45 km/h require a "light motorcycle" license (much like a Vespa does), lights, license plate, and a helmet. They drive (or are ridden? the line gets blurry) on the road like a Vespa. The people on them are generally people that already commuted everywhere by bike, now they just end up less sweaty when they arrive. - e-bikes up to 25 km/h are treated exactly like regular bikes. They're driven by pretty much everyone that wants to afford one - commuters, rich teenagers, grannies, you name it. - I never see electric motorcycles. Every single neither-a-e-bike-nor-an-e-scooter motorcycle is either a Harley Davidson or a sports bike. I know they're not electric because I can hear them both from 3 miles away. - Vespa type scooters are around, but rarely electric. I assume people just keep the ICE ones they already own and switch to something else when those hit EOL. - What's really taken off is electric sit-down scooters. They don't require helmets, are illegal to ride on roads, and lots and lots of 16-25 year olds just ride around on them in the evening every single day. They're styled to look like Harleys etc. to appeal to the rider's ego. It's amazing how they turned "scooters you stand on are for Bay Area dweebs" into "this will make you look so cool, dude!" by adding a seat and trim.

rngname22 4y ago
Curious what seated electric scooters you're referring to, any chance you know of a brand or model you could point to as an example? I see popularity with stand up e-scooters as well as e-bikes as well as e-longboards here in NYC, some electric vespa-style scooters, but not sure what you are referring. Any chance it's like the Super 73?
- ThePadawan 4y ago
  Here's a (apparently non-brand) one: https://www.easymotorswinterthur.ch/produkt/citytwister-6-premium/ https://www.easymotorswinterthur.ch/produkt/citytwister-6-pr... (That one is available in multiple versions, but the base one I linked is the low power category I was talking about)

ActorNightly 4y ago

As they should. There are several ebikes that on throttle can hit close to 50 mph, which is enough for commuting on road ways, while having a low power pedelec mode for regular bike path commuting. This is the perfect solution to public transportation, compared to any other alternative.

wizofaus 4y ago
You mean "private transportation"? I'm an avid bike rider, and it's not the lack of a motor that holds me back from promoting it as anything like the "perfect solution" for anything - the reality is bikes do expose you to more danger of getting injured, aren't great in wet weather, and unsuitable for longer distances or when carrying bulky loads. But for any journey that those aren't the primary concerns, regular push bikes are pretty close to perfect. I can see e-bikes being handy in hotter/hillier climates or for riders with physical conditions that exclude them from maintaining the leg strength (and/or aerobic capacity) to provide their own pedal power. I can't help thinking a large number of e-bike riders who are young and able-bodied are eschewing a good opportunity to keep themselves fit.
- ActorNightly 4y ago
  > the reality is bikes do expose you to more danger of getting injured, aren't great in wet weather, and unsuitable for longer distances or when carrying bulky loads. No I do in fact mean public, because a properly put together pedelec bike is fairly cheap compared to even the cheapest car, and that is the primary driver for a whole lotta people when it comes to transport, especially in urban environments. Its the reason motorcycles are super popular in Europe, where owning a car is more expensive despite the lower danger. Non-ebikes are slow, and require effort to actually pedal, which is out of reach for a lot of people. Stick a motor on it, and suddenly you can get to work in a reasonable time (sometimes faster due to having the ability to go off-road onto paths), and without putting in effort.
  - witheld 4y ago
    A bus is public transportation. A train is public transportation. A bike-share program is, tentatively, public transportation. Price is not a factor here- motorcycles are not public transportation because they are cheap. Bicycles are not public transportation because they are yet cheaper. Personal conveyance is not public transportation.