4 ms·

> We know how the demographics of HN skew, and that creates a huge bias in the discussion here. I hazard to guess there is a huge skew in your social circles a

> We know how the demographics of HN skew, and that creates a huge bias in the discussion here. I hazard to guess there is a huge skew in your social circles and media consumption. When was the last time you had an earnest discussion with a swing voter who leans pro-life? Note that I'm not talking about someone torn between voting Democrat or voting Green: I'm talking about someone who voted for Obama, then Trump, then was undecided on 2020. I'll hazard to guess you simply haven't: I have. Simply yelling at them for being white men is ineffective, particularly when they're nonwhite and female. And they're absolutely capable of handling philosophical arguments, and it's deeply condescending to define nonwhites and women as nonagents who would never to think about the philosophical underpinnings of a political position.

ModernMech 4y ago
> I'll hazard to guess you simply haven't And you would be wrong, because that describes basically my entire family. I watch a lot of Fox News, I watch a lot of MSNBC. I read the WSJ, I read the WAPO. My friends are both conservative Christians and self proclaimed Marxists. I dated a super pro-life Catholic for a decade. What more do you want from me?
- scarmig 4y ago
  Has your approach been effective at shifting their opinions?
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    Insofar as my actual approach is persuading using the experience of actual people rather than philosophical arguments, yes I've had success with that. It probably won't work with the people here, but the people here are very peculiar. What you see here on HN is not my attempt to persuade internet people. Does that ever work?
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      I’m occasionally persuaded, but rarely by anecdotes. Most people lack critical thinking skills, this forum being something of an exception.
fundad 4y ago
You can quibble about why so many on the right and the center are insulated from the harm, but that demonstrates that people don't want to discuss the intended harmful outcome of these state laws that will go national via SCOTUS or when a Republican takes power again. It's totally reasonable to be disgusted at how convinced people can be that the conservative project won't come at us with a dangerous national abortion ban with no exceptions and then come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  > It's totally reasonable to be disgusted at how convinced people can be that the conservative project won't come at us with a dangerous national abortion ban with no exceptions and then come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex. I don't think it's reasonable at all, because I think you're dealing in a particularly exaggerated caricature of Republicans (you're parroting all of the talking points from the most detached left-wing "media outlets"). Notably, 55% of Republicans support gay marriage in 2022 per Gallup--the idea that they're "coming for gay marriage" is ridiculous. Moreover, "what your kids learn" is something everyone is concerned about and have been concerned about for the last 50 years (recall it used to be the left that pushed back against indoctrination of children in schools). This is just baseless moral panic / hyperventilation, and its only function is to spread hate and division.
  - fundad 4y ago
    State laws passed by elected Republicans are not media. These bans existed in law not too long ago in this country not just in media. We just saw the Texas law and the intended SCOTUS decision fulfill the 2016 GOP campaign promise. There is no reason to believe the desired outcome goes no further than the Dobbs decision. And it would be easy for elected Rs and R candidates to fight division by saying they won't come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex. Yes I want to create division between people who evaluate the movement on its desired outcomes and see the harm and people who think the US is exceptional and wouldn't use the law in immoral ways. And I didn't say they're "coming for gay marriage", I referenced mixed marriage as "who you can marry." But it won't stop at gay marriage either, the right to be openly gay or trans is what they're coming for and people should know that.

ModernMech 4y ago

> I'll hazard to guess you simply haven't And you would be wrong, because that describes basically my entire family. I watch a lot of Fox News, I watch a lot of MSNBC. I read the WSJ, I read the WAPO. My friends are both conservative Christians and self proclaimed Marxists. I dated a super pro-life Catholic for a decade. What more do you want from me?

scarmig 4y ago
Has your approach been effective at shifting their opinions?
- ModernMech 4y ago
  Insofar as my actual approach is persuading using the experience of actual people rather than philosophical arguments, yes I've had success with that. It probably won't work with the people here, but the people here are very peculiar. What you see here on HN is not my attempt to persuade internet people. Does that ever work?
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I’m occasionally persuaded, but rarely by anecdotes. Most people lack critical thinking skills, this forum being something of an exception.

fundad 4y ago

You can quibble about why so many on the right and the center are insulated from the harm, but that demonstrates that people don't want to discuss the intended harmful outcome of these state laws that will go national via SCOTUS or when a Republican takes power again. It's totally reasonable to be disgusted at how convinced people can be that the conservative project won't come at us with a dangerous national abortion ban with no exceptions and then come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex.

throwaway894345 4y ago
> It's totally reasonable to be disgusted at how convinced people can be that the conservative project won't come at us with a dangerous national abortion ban with no exceptions and then come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex. I don't think it's reasonable at all, because I think you're dealing in a particularly exaggerated caricature of Republicans (you're parroting all of the talking points from the most detached left-wing "media outlets"). Notably, 55% of Republicans support gay marriage in 2022 per Gallup--the idea that they're "coming for gay marriage" is ridiculous. Moreover, "what your kids learn" is something everyone is concerned about and have been concerned about for the last 50 years (recall it used to be the left that pushed back against indoctrination of children in schools). This is just baseless moral panic / hyperventilation, and its only function is to spread hate and division.
- fundad 4y ago
  State laws passed by elected Republicans are not media. These bans existed in law not too long ago in this country not just in media. We just saw the Texas law and the intended SCOTUS decision fulfill the 2016 GOP campaign promise. There is no reason to believe the desired outcome goes no further than the Dobbs decision. And it would be easy for elected Rs and R candidates to fight division by saying they won't come for contraception, who you can marry, what your kids learn, how you pray and whose property rights are worth as little as their right to marry and have sex. Yes I want to create division between people who evaluate the movement on its desired outcomes and see the harm and people who think the US is exceptional and wouldn't use the law in immoral ways. And I didn't say they're "coming for gay marriage", I referenced mixed marriage as "who you can marry." But it won't stop at gay marriage either, the right to be openly gay or trans is what they're coming for and people should know that.