4 ms·

And my point is that Brazil won't get rich by doing what it is currently doing. The primary sector won't enrich the general population or make the country more

by ratww 4y ago

And my point is that Brazil won't get rich by doing what it is currently doing. The primary sector won't enrich the general population or make the country more developed. Only some people favoured by the current government. That's what's currently happening, not some cuckoo theory.

cassianoleal 4y ago
Brazil is rich though, and largely because of those things. The fact that such richness is so unjustly distributed across the population is an orthogonal problem.
- ratww 4y ago
  Yep. But one way of distributing this across the population is by favouring other sectors rather than strangling them to favour the primary. The number of people working in the agricultural sector has only shrunk and will keep shrinking due to mechanisation/automation. The general population won't see the benefits of the primary sector growing, unless we have a Soviet-style wealth redistribution.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    We can agree on that. My point was not that the current model is a good one, but rather that its problem is not one of generating wealth but rather one of distributing it, which you just demonstrated as well. I guarantee you, I was not defending the current focus on developing /latifúndios/ at the expense of everything else.
    - ratww 4y ago
      Ah perfect, then we're in agreement. A lot of people assume I'm being a radical and saying Brazil should stop exporting meat/soy/etc. I'm not. What I'm saying is that Brazil needs is a plan that's not simply "keep fucking the country even though it's not really working". I'm not a fan of people from richer countries saying "Brazil should keep doing what it seems to want to do", because this is also way too favourable to them.
      - cassianoleal 4y ago
        I'm not a fan of richer (or poorer!) countries saying much of anything about what other countries should or should not do. :) Everyone is biased. Everyone is hypocritical to some degree. We should find common ground, not impose or be imposed on.
        ratww 4y ago
        Agree. I think it's kinda easy to find common ground, but everyone should be allowed a voice. With the "shut up, let Brazil destroy forests, we did it too", the only people that seem to be getting a voice are politically-correct privileged people from rich countries (who want to keep taking advantage of Brazil), criminals in Brazil destroying the forest and the corrupt current Brazilian government.
  - is_true 4y ago
    There's a lot of people working in that automation. That earn much more and make the country more efficient, more production means more jobs down the road. Also, countries like brasil don't export commodities just because they want, there 's a web of tariff to keep producing countries from industrializing those products.
    - ratww 4y ago
      > There's a lot of people working in that automation. Sorry for the pun, but Brazil isn't really reaping the benefits of agricultural automation to compensate for the issues being an exclusively primary-sector exporter causes. Automation scales very well. Also notice that I'm not saying Brazil shouldn't keep doing what it is doing, I'm saying that other more developed-country-ish sectors should be expanded too. > Also, countries like brasil don't export commodities just because they want, there 's a web of tariff to keep producing countries from industrializing those products. If that's the case, then saying "Brazil needs to import primary sector stuff before they grow fo' real like us" is even worse :) They want Brazil to suffer before it has a chance to become a developed country.
      - is_true 4y ago
        They don't want more developed countries. Period. Also, I don't know where you are from, but brazil has a healthy agritech industry selling know-how and technology to other countries.
        ratww 4y ago
        The only people who "don't want more developed countries" are the people that want Brazil to keep being a primary sector exporter that suffers from Resource curse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse). I'm from Brazil but I have lived abroad for a while. And what I said before doesn't negate the fact that Brazil has a healthy agritech industry. This industry still doesn't make up for the problems caused by the current policies. And one thing doesn't really negate the other. We don't have to kill the primary sector for others to develop.
rglullis 4y ago
The alternative to "not enrich the country" will be "make it even poorer and unequal than it already is".
- ratww 4y ago
  Bullshit. Brasil has >70% people working in the service sector. The percentage of people working in agriculture has actually shrunk since the Lula years. Mechanization and automation will guarantee it keeps shrinking. The current economic measures are favouring only the primary sector to the detriment of others. I'm not even calling for ceasing imports of agricultural stuff, all I'm saying is that the current madness is already making the people poorer.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    It is precisely because so many people working in the service sector that the country does not get rich. Doesn't build any wealth, doesn't get to export anything. And also, it is not the amount of people working that determines how to enrich the country. It is the overall output. Brazil has nothing but the agro sector at the moment. To build a stronger industry, they need to come up with the resources from somewhere. And agro is as good as any of the alternatives.
    - ratww 4y ago
      Yes, and? My point is precisely that those people aren't going to start working in agriculture. The number of people working in agriculture is only shrinking, and there's several labour problems with agricultural work in Brazil that won't cause farm/livestock workers to see the money. I'm not suggesting people move to the services sector.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        > The number of people working in agriculture is only shrinking The number of people working doesn't matter. What matters is that the country gets through agriculture the resources needed to invest in the other sectors.
pibechorro 4y ago
You just described what basically goes on in every country.. some more blatantly than others.
- ratww 4y ago
  Not exactly. What is happening now wasn't the reality in Brazil for some time before. Things were getting better.

by ratww 4y ago

cassianoleal 4y ago

Brazil is rich though, and largely because of those things. The fact that such richness is so unjustly distributed across the population is an orthogonal problem.

ratww 4y ago
Yep. But one way of distributing this across the population is by favouring other sectors rather than strangling them to favour the primary. The number of people working in the agricultural sector has only shrunk and will keep shrinking due to mechanisation/automation. The general population won't see the benefits of the primary sector growing, unless we have a Soviet-style wealth redistribution.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  We can agree on that. My point was not that the current model is a good one, but rather that its problem is not one of generating wealth but rather one of distributing it, which you just demonstrated as well. I guarantee you, I was not defending the current focus on developing /latifúndios/ at the expense of everything else.
  - ratww 4y ago
    Ah perfect, then we're in agreement. A lot of people assume I'm being a radical and saying Brazil should stop exporting meat/soy/etc. I'm not. What I'm saying is that Brazil needs is a plan that's not simply "keep fucking the country even though it's not really working". I'm not a fan of people from richer countries saying "Brazil should keep doing what it seems to want to do", because this is also way too favourable to them.
    - cassianoleal 4y ago
      I'm not a fan of richer (or poorer!) countries saying much of anything about what other countries should or should not do. :) Everyone is biased. Everyone is hypocritical to some degree. We should find common ground, not impose or be imposed on.
      - ratww 4y ago
        Agree. I think it's kinda easy to find common ground, but everyone should be allowed a voice. With the "shut up, let Brazil destroy forests, we did it too", the only people that seem to be getting a voice are politically-correct privileged people from rich countries (who want to keep taking advantage of Brazil), criminals in Brazil destroying the forest and the corrupt current Brazilian government.
- is_true 4y ago
  There's a lot of people working in that automation. That earn much more and make the country more efficient, more production means more jobs down the road. Also, countries like brasil don't export commodities just because they want, there 's a web of tariff to keep producing countries from industrializing those products.
  - ratww 4y ago
    > There's a lot of people working in that automation. Sorry for the pun, but Brazil isn't really reaping the benefits of agricultural automation to compensate for the issues being an exclusively primary-sector exporter causes. Automation scales very well. Also notice that I'm not saying Brazil shouldn't keep doing what it is doing, I'm saying that other more developed-country-ish sectors should be expanded too. > Also, countries like brasil don't export commodities just because they want, there 's a web of tariff to keep producing countries from industrializing those products. If that's the case, then saying "Brazil needs to import primary sector stuff before they grow fo' real like us" is even worse :) They want Brazil to suffer before it has a chance to become a developed country.
    - is_true 4y ago
      They don't want more developed countries. Period. Also, I don't know where you are from, but brazil has a healthy agritech industry selling know-how and technology to other countries.
      - ratww 4y ago
        The only people who "don't want more developed countries" are the people that want Brazil to keep being a primary sector exporter that suffers from Resource curse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse). I'm from Brazil but I have lived abroad for a while. And what I said before doesn't negate the fact that Brazil has a healthy agritech industry. This industry still doesn't make up for the problems caused by the current policies. And one thing doesn't really negate the other. We don't have to kill the primary sector for others to develop.

rglullis 4y ago

The alternative to "not enrich the country" will be "make it even poorer and unequal than it already is".

ratww 4y ago
Bullshit. Brasil has >70% people working in the service sector. The percentage of people working in agriculture has actually shrunk since the Lula years. Mechanization and automation will guarantee it keeps shrinking. The current economic measures are favouring only the primary sector to the detriment of others. I'm not even calling for ceasing imports of agricultural stuff, all I'm saying is that the current madness is already making the people poorer.
- rglullis 4y ago
  It is precisely because so many people working in the service sector that the country does not get rich. Doesn't build any wealth, doesn't get to export anything. And also, it is not the amount of people working that determines how to enrich the country. It is the overall output. Brazil has nothing but the agro sector at the moment. To build a stronger industry, they need to come up with the resources from somewhere. And agro is as good as any of the alternatives.
  - ratww 4y ago
    Yes, and? My point is precisely that those people aren't going to start working in agriculture. The number of people working in agriculture is only shrinking, and there's several labour problems with agricultural work in Brazil that won't cause farm/livestock workers to see the money. I'm not suggesting people move to the services sector.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      > The number of people working in agriculture is only shrinking The number of people working doesn't matter. What matters is that the country gets through agriculture the resources needed to invest in the other sectors.

pibechorro 4y ago

You just described what basically goes on in every country.. some more blatantly than others.

ratww 4y ago
Not exactly. What is happening now wasn't the reality in Brazil for some time before. Things were getting better.