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As much as the US government does questionable and bad things (and it does), the CCP is worse. The US still has at least the semblance of the rule of law. There

by jmyeet 4y ago

As much as the US government does questionable and bad things (and it does), the CCP is worse. The US still has at least the semblance of the rule of law. There is still some separation between corporations and the government. Corporations in China are extensions of the state and tools of foreign policy in a way they just aren't in the West. The US government can also be replaced. That's why China and the US just aren't equivalent here and why something like Tiktok is of greater risk and concern than any US Big Tech app or platform. Yes, US law enforcement can get access to, say, messages. There's a process for that. Some of it is pretty questionable (eg FISA court, pen registers, NSLs) but at least there's a process. I don't for a second believe that US intelligence has a firehose of everything posted on Twitter and Facebook just because I don't believe the US government has the storage capacity required. Secondly, China is completely protectionist about access to its market. There are Chinese versions for every app and platform. China uses access to its market as a giant carrot to exact concessions from Western companies but they're chasing a phantom: China will never let any Western company "win" in China. Part of getting access to China is playing ball with the CCP, which means giving access to data on a whole level above the US government. It means enforcing the Great Firewall and, for example, censoring mention of the Tiannamen Square massacre. Trade needs to be recipricoal so if China restricts access to the Chinese market, I see no issue with Western countries responding in kind. The threat model for something like Tiktok is a whole lot worse than any Western equivalent.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sudosysgen 4y ago
The US has no rule of law for national security consideration in other countries. As a non US citizen the US government in practice has no due process consideration if they wish to spy on you, torture you, or kill you. Corporations are an extension of the state in this process, as we have learned thanks to Edward Snowden. They have no choice but to facilitate the use of state power on foreign nationals. As a non-American I don't see the difference for me. If you are an American all you're saying is "only my government should spy on me".
- aaomidi 4y ago
  +1 to all of this. US has no standing with the people of a lot of the world.
  - asah 4y ago
    While perhaps true, it's irrelevant to THIS conversation - THIS conversation is about a Chinese company operating IN THE US. There does not need to be parity.
    - aaomidi 4y ago
      How is looking at the larger picture irrelevant here?
      - mlyle 4y ago
        Wishing countries could be better actors towards foreign geopolitical interests and foreign citizens is a nice thought and a world we should work towards. In the meantime, countries still need to act to protect their citizens and their national interests against foreign adversaries-- especially prohibiting adversarial/dangerous behavior within their own economic zones and borders. (i.e., China also has a rational interest in restricting operations of US firms gathering information on Chinese citizens-- we don't need to choose "good" or "bad" guys).
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    The American governments job isn’t to look out for foreign citizens. That’s the foreign citizens governments job. This is specifically about American national security, not any other countries.
- jmyeet 4y ago
  > As a non US citizen the US government in practice has no due process consideration if they wish to spy on you, torture you, or kill you. Spy? Sort of. Generally speaking, US intelligence agencies have a lot of leeway when 1) you're not a US citizen AND 2) you're not on US soil. If either of those things isn't true then it's a different story. There are workarounds (eg outsourcing spying to allies). Torture and kill? Huh? I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Do you mean in a war zone? > Corporations are an extension of the state If anything, I'd argue in the US the government is an extension of the corporations. The US government certainly acts at the behest of the capital-owning class. > They have no choice but to facilitate the use of state power on foreign nationals. I mean US companies are subject to US laws and that includes (as stated) pen registers, NSLs, FISA warrants, etc. Still, there's more due process here than for Chinese companies. > If you are an American all you're saying is "only my government should spy on me". That's not what I said at all. What I will say is that given the choice between living in China and being subject to Chinese spying and living in the US subject to US spying I'll pick the US hands down every time. Why? Because I can talk about US atrocities without "disappearing". I could compare the president to a cartoon character without "disappearing". The US also doesn't (currently at least) engage in ethnic cleansing and eradication through "re-education" camps (eg Tibet, Xianjiang). Nor do I have to worry about my ability to get anywhere because I said something critical of the government and took a big hit to my social credit score. And the US has no equivalent to Hong Kong's "security" laws.
93po 4y ago
>I don't believe the US government has the storage capacity required. A single data warehouse used by the NSA stores exabytes of data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center A single exabyte is enough to support Facebook's entire business operations for 5+ years. Photos, videos, posts, everything. I doubt the NSA is storing every photo on Facebook on their own servers, but it's clearly enough space to store every text message, all browsing history, all texted photos, all emails, all voicemails, all financial transactions into perpetuity for every person on the planet.

by jmyeet 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

sudosysgen 4y ago

The US has no rule of law for national security consideration in other countries. As a non US citizen the US government in practice has no due process consideration if they wish to spy on you, torture you, or kill you. Corporations are an extension of the state in this process, as we have learned thanks to Edward Snowden. They have no choice but to facilitate the use of state power on foreign nationals. As a non-American I don't see the difference for me. If you are an American all you're saying is "only my government should spy on me".

aaomidi 4y ago
+1 to all of this. US has no standing with the people of a lot of the world.
- asah 4y ago
  While perhaps true, it's irrelevant to THIS conversation - THIS conversation is about a Chinese company operating IN THE US. There does not need to be parity.
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    How is looking at the larger picture irrelevant here?
    - mlyle 4y ago
      Wishing countries could be better actors towards foreign geopolitical interests and foreign citizens is a nice thought and a world we should work towards. In the meantime, countries still need to act to protect their citizens and their national interests against foreign adversaries-- especially prohibiting adversarial/dangerous behavior within their own economic zones and borders. (i.e., China also has a rational interest in restricting operations of US firms gathering information on Chinese citizens-- we don't need to choose "good" or "bad" guys).
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  The American governments job isn’t to look out for foreign citizens. That’s the foreign citizens governments job. This is specifically about American national security, not any other countries.
jmyeet 4y ago
> As a non US citizen the US government in practice has no due process consideration if they wish to spy on you, torture you, or kill you. Spy? Sort of. Generally speaking, US intelligence agencies have a lot of leeway when 1) you're not a US citizen AND 2) you're not on US soil. If either of those things isn't true then it's a different story. There are workarounds (eg outsourcing spying to allies). Torture and kill? Huh? I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Do you mean in a war zone? > Corporations are an extension of the state If anything, I'd argue in the US the government is an extension of the corporations. The US government certainly acts at the behest of the capital-owning class. > They have no choice but to facilitate the use of state power on foreign nationals. I mean US companies are subject to US laws and that includes (as stated) pen registers, NSLs, FISA warrants, etc. Still, there's more due process here than for Chinese companies. > If you are an American all you're saying is "only my government should spy on me". That's not what I said at all. What I will say is that given the choice between living in China and being subject to Chinese spying and living in the US subject to US spying I'll pick the US hands down every time. Why? Because I can talk about US atrocities without "disappearing". I could compare the president to a cartoon character without "disappearing". The US also doesn't (currently at least) engage in ethnic cleansing and eradication through "re-education" camps (eg Tibet, Xianjiang). Nor do I have to worry about my ability to get anywhere because I said something critical of the government and took a big hit to my social credit score. And the US has no equivalent to Hong Kong's "security" laws.

93po 4y ago

>I don't believe the US government has the storage capacity required. A single data warehouse used by the NSA stores exabytes of data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center A single exabyte is enough to support Facebook's entire business operations for 5+ years. Photos, videos, posts, everything. I doubt the NSA is storing every photo on Facebook on their own servers, but it's clearly enough space to store every text message, all browsing history, all texted photos, all emails, all voicemails, all financial transactions into perpetuity for every person on the planet.