4 ms·

(Speaking about EU here...) E-bikes has a maximum speed is 25 km/h, and from the few studies done on the subject there doesn't seem to be any increase risk fro

by belorn 4y ago

(Speaking about EU here...) E-bikes has a maximum speed is 25 km/h, and from the few studies done on the subject there doesn't seem to be any increase risk from e-bikes compared to regular bikes. One significant data point is that the average speed of e-bikes has been observed to be similar as of regular bikes with two exceptions: up hill has a higher speed than regular bikes and long flat stretches has more even speed. Most accidents involving bikes and e-bikes alike occur at very slow or even still speed, with the rider falling off and landing badly. There are two factors however that those studies have found. More disabled people use e-bikes, and when they end up in accidents they tend have worse injuries. E-bike users also tend to use their bikes more often and thus have more accidents with their bikes than people who ride their bikes less (looking at accidents per person rather than accident per mile). Going based on accident rates, any license that e-bikes should have should also apply to bikes, e-scooters and likely also people who jog in cities. There is simply no data that support a law treating e-bikes as different from regular bikes, as long they are limited to 25 km/h. A motorcycle weighting 200kg+ and operating over 150+km/h is however a very different beast which the accident rates also demonstrate, which is why they need a proper license to operate safely among other human being.

rich_sasha 4y ago
In the former EU country of UK this is totally abused. I believe a vehicle can be capable of exceeding these limits, so long as they are enabled while on roads. So you can have a powerful ebike so long as there is a switch that makes it less powerful, and you switch it on while riding eg on a bike path. Lots of people seem to ride with it disabled though, confident that if the police catch them, they just push the switch and pretend it was on. This stems, AFAICT, from mobility scooters for the disabled. On pavements they have to be limited to 4mph for pedestrian safety, but on roads it is probably in fact safer to ride faster, which they do. Hence a flippable speed limiter.
- belorn 4y ago
  I haven't ever seen a switch on a e-bike. In Sweden you would need a license plate if the vehicle is capable of exceeding the limit of 25 km/h, and operating such vehicle at any speed requires a driver license. What we got that serve a similar purpose is 4 wheel "e-bikes", also called quadricycle. Basically cars that has their gearbox altered to only use gear 1 and 2, which by eu-classification put them in the same category as e-scooters. Very popular with teens since it allows them to drive without a driving license, and very accident prone. Looking at the statistics, those should require a license to operate.
  - feet 4y ago
    To add to this: the Bosch systems can be set to a lower or higher limit but it needs to be taken to a Bosch dealer to do this. They don't give the software to any old Joe Schmoe (I tried) Unless someone throws something on github of course ;)
- noahtallen 4y ago
  Cars are so much worse in this regard. Most cars can easily go twice as fast as you would ever legally be able to drive on the street. You don’t even need a switch to go 100mph! The problem is, of course, enforcement. If there is truly a speeding and safety problem with ebikes, then the existing laws around bikes, ebikes, and speed limits can be enforced to solve it. Most consumer-ready e-bikes are already speed limited. For example, many won’t do any motor assistance past 20mph. (E.g. a class 1 ebike)
  - rich_sasha 4y ago
    I mostly agree, except in many cases (not all) cars abuse a different space than that operated by regular cyclists and pedestrians. Eg I won't have a car going fast down the pavement and hitting my elderly mother, not usually anyway. With these ebikes in the UK, they go anywhere they can fit. Different menace I'd argue.
    - belorn 4y ago
      The fear that bikes might hit a disabled person on the pavement is an interesting case. I often see parents walking with a stroller on bike lanes (nice and flat, and often clear of snow), so many times in fact that I look up if there were any statistics on bikes hitting one and killing the helpless baby inside. I also don't see other pedestrians reacting to the situation as if the parents were putting the child in mortal danger. However, try as I might I could not find a single case of infant being killed by a bike in my country. The only explanation I have is that thanks to the slow speed, bikers and e-bikers alike have time to slow down if there are a risk of a collision. It would be interesting to see UK statistics and hear if the same is true with elderly mothers?
      - rich_sasha 4y ago
        I have personally been almost hit by an e-bike delivery driver riding on the pavement while looking at his phone. Same for going down bike paths the wrong way, or going through a red light. In neither of these cases did we actually hit each other because I was alert. If I happened to be wearing headphones and deep in thought (arguably not best course of action on a pavement in a city but not wrong either), I'd be badly hurt. I guess most people are alert enough to avoid the e-bikers, so accidents don't happen much, but they are still a menace (in my locale at least). I have nothing against e-bikes as such, I own one in fact and it's a good piece of kit. I just think that as power goes up, enforcement should keep up.
mping 4y ago
Nitpick: that's a maximum of 25 km/h for assisted mode, if you're going a steep downhill you will obviously go higher than that.
- belorn 4y ago
  Well yes, and so do regular bikes. It not uncommon to see bikes pass e-bikes downhill on some roads, and then have the e-bike pass the bike uphill. I also suspect (but got no numbers to support this) that e-bikes tend to be designed more often where the rider sits upright which has maximum air resistance, compared to many faster city bikes where the rider is leaning forward. Air resistance is a big thing if you want to go fast on a bike. A common argument in favor of e-bikes that I see is that they allow for upright ridding because the engine take cares of the increase air resistance.

by belorn 4y ago

rich_sasha 4y ago

In the former EU country of UK this is totally abused. I believe a vehicle can be capable of exceeding these limits, so long as they are enabled while on roads. So you can have a powerful ebike so long as there is a switch that makes it less powerful, and you switch it on while riding eg on a bike path. Lots of people seem to ride with it disabled though, confident that if the police catch them, they just push the switch and pretend it was on. This stems, AFAICT, from mobility scooters for the disabled. On pavements they have to be limited to 4mph for pedestrian safety, but on roads it is probably in fact safer to ride faster, which they do. Hence a flippable speed limiter.

belorn 4y ago
I haven't ever seen a switch on a e-bike. In Sweden you would need a license plate if the vehicle is capable of exceeding the limit of 25 km/h, and operating such vehicle at any speed requires a driver license. What we got that serve a similar purpose is 4 wheel "e-bikes", also called quadricycle. Basically cars that has their gearbox altered to only use gear 1 and 2, which by eu-classification put them in the same category as e-scooters. Very popular with teens since it allows them to drive without a driving license, and very accident prone. Looking at the statistics, those should require a license to operate.
- feet 4y ago
  To add to this: the Bosch systems can be set to a lower or higher limit but it needs to be taken to a Bosch dealer to do this. They don't give the software to any old Joe Schmoe (I tried) Unless someone throws something on github of course ;)
noahtallen 4y ago
Cars are so much worse in this regard. Most cars can easily go twice as fast as you would ever legally be able to drive on the street. You don’t even need a switch to go 100mph! The problem is, of course, enforcement. If there is truly a speeding and safety problem with ebikes, then the existing laws around bikes, ebikes, and speed limits can be enforced to solve it. Most consumer-ready e-bikes are already speed limited. For example, many won’t do any motor assistance past 20mph. (E.g. a class 1 ebike)
- rich_sasha 4y ago
  I mostly agree, except in many cases (not all) cars abuse a different space than that operated by regular cyclists and pedestrians. Eg I won't have a car going fast down the pavement and hitting my elderly mother, not usually anyway. With these ebikes in the UK, they go anywhere they can fit. Different menace I'd argue.
  - belorn 4y ago
    The fear that bikes might hit a disabled person on the pavement is an interesting case. I often see parents walking with a stroller on bike lanes (nice and flat, and often clear of snow), so many times in fact that I look up if there were any statistics on bikes hitting one and killing the helpless baby inside. I also don't see other pedestrians reacting to the situation as if the parents were putting the child in mortal danger. However, try as I might I could not find a single case of infant being killed by a bike in my country. The only explanation I have is that thanks to the slow speed, bikers and e-bikers alike have time to slow down if there are a risk of a collision. It would be interesting to see UK statistics and hear if the same is true with elderly mothers?
    - rich_sasha 4y ago
      I have personally been almost hit by an e-bike delivery driver riding on the pavement while looking at his phone. Same for going down bike paths the wrong way, or going through a red light. In neither of these cases did we actually hit each other because I was alert. If I happened to be wearing headphones and deep in thought (arguably not best course of action on a pavement in a city but not wrong either), I'd be badly hurt. I guess most people are alert enough to avoid the e-bikers, so accidents don't happen much, but they are still a menace (in my locale at least). I have nothing against e-bikes as such, I own one in fact and it's a good piece of kit. I just think that as power goes up, enforcement should keep up.

mping 4y ago

Nitpick: that's a maximum of 25 km/h for assisted mode, if you're going a steep downhill you will obviously go higher than that.

belorn 4y ago
Well yes, and so do regular bikes. It not uncommon to see bikes pass e-bikes downhill on some roads, and then have the e-bike pass the bike uphill. I also suspect (but got no numbers to support this) that e-bikes tend to be designed more often where the rider sits upright which has maximum air resistance, compared to many faster city bikes where the rider is leaning forward. Air resistance is a big thing if you want to go fast on a bike. A common argument in favor of e-bikes that I see is that they allow for upright ridding because the engine take cares of the increase air resistance.