4 ms·

Your first argument sounds like appeasement, didn't work so well in WW2. Sounds like burying your head in the sand hoping no one will do anything bad. I think

Your first argument sounds like appeasement, didn't work so well in WW2. Sounds like burying your head in the sand hoping no one will do anything bad. I think the parent post means top dog in military and power sense, not welfare of citizens which is all well and good until another nation is trying to undermine your core values. > Your successor will be judged by the standard you set What successor are we thinking of here? Is that China? India? Russia? These are all very scary regimes.

roenxi 4y ago
The story of appeasement was basically that the Nazis kept invading places, country after country, until they tried to take on the USSR and got transformed into paste (the US getting involved being a major factor). It was really quite breathtaking in hindsight because they wouldn't stop and obviously didn't intend to stop, ever. gp's argument has no parallel to appeasement.
- roberttod 4y ago
  > treating countries as though they are enemies can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can increase the threat rather than decrease it. That's what I was referring to. Not appeasement exactly but seems like similar logic.
  - roenxi 4y ago
    That logic is nothing like appeasement. Or if it is then appeasement is a great strategy that we should all be using daily at all levels of societal organisation. Making enemies of people who are not enemies is one of the stupidest moves imaginable. It is hard to overstate how mistaken that sort of mistake would be.
Santosh83 4y ago
Yes indeed. Two out of those three countries have never invaded outside countries, whether for freedom, WMD or some other crap excuse. One of them is actually a functioning democracy. On the other hand a citizen of a country that has invaded almost a dozen sovereign nations, conducted almost an equal number of proxy wars and even used nuclear weapons twice, thinks we are scary. And lumps Russia, China and India all into one ill defined category of "scary regimes"... All this ignoring for the moment the general Western enterprise of erstwhile colonialism and current economic neocolonialism that makes the destruction wrought upon developing nations by direct war/attacks pale in comparison.
- plonk 4y ago
  > Two out of those three countries have never invaded outside countries If you consider Taiwan a country, that's technically true but misleading. China would have invaded long ago if the US weren't capable or (claiming to be) willing to defend it.
  - trasz 4y ago
    [citation needed]. US claims that’s true, but everyone who remembers Iraq knows US loves a good lie. China, on the other hand, explicitly declares they won’t invade. China also doesn’t have much to gain by invading, and everything to lose.
    - thematrixturtle 4y ago
      Could you point us to China saying that? AFAIK China's policy is precisely the opposite: they've repeatedly made it very clear they will use military force if Taiwan ever proclaims independence.
      - trasz 4y ago
        No - they made it clear that they will use military force if US invades Taiwan. They also made it very clear that they want peaceful solution, because their economy doesn’t depend on waging wars. Feel free to prove otherwise; note that Chinese statements are quite often misquoted.
        thematrixturtle 4y ago
        “If anyone dares to split Taiwan from China, the Chinese army will definitely not hesitate to start a war no matter the cost,” Defence Minister Wei Fenghe said during a meeting with Lloyd Austin on Friday. “The PLA [People’s Liberation Army] would have no choice but to fight … and crush any attempt of Taiwan independence, safeguarding national sovereignty and territorial integrity.” https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/10/china-tells-us-it-will-not-hesitate-to-start-war-over-taiwan https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/10/china-tells-us-it-w...

roenxi 4y ago

The story of appeasement was basically that the Nazis kept invading places, country after country, until they tried to take on the USSR and got transformed into paste (the US getting involved being a major factor). It was really quite breathtaking in hindsight because they wouldn't stop and obviously didn't intend to stop, ever. gp's argument has no parallel to appeasement.

roberttod 4y ago
> treating countries as though they are enemies can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It can increase the threat rather than decrease it. That's what I was referring to. Not appeasement exactly but seems like similar logic.
- roenxi 4y ago
  That logic is nothing like appeasement. Or if it is then appeasement is a great strategy that we should all be using daily at all levels of societal organisation. Making enemies of people who are not enemies is one of the stupidest moves imaginable. It is hard to overstate how mistaken that sort of mistake would be.

Santosh83 4y ago

Yes indeed. Two out of those three countries have never invaded outside countries, whether for freedom, WMD or some other crap excuse. One of them is actually a functioning democracy. On the other hand a citizen of a country that has invaded almost a dozen sovereign nations, conducted almost an equal number of proxy wars and even used nuclear weapons twice, thinks we are scary. And lumps Russia, China and India all into one ill defined category of "scary regimes"... All this ignoring for the moment the general Western enterprise of erstwhile colonialism and current economic neocolonialism that makes the destruction wrought upon developing nations by direct war/attacks pale in comparison.

plonk 4y ago
> Two out of those three countries have never invaded outside countries If you consider Taiwan a country, that's technically true but misleading. China would have invaded long ago if the US weren't capable or (claiming to be) willing to defend it.
- trasz 4y ago
  [citation needed]. US claims that’s true, but everyone who remembers Iraq knows US loves a good lie. China, on the other hand, explicitly declares they won’t invade. China also doesn’t have much to gain by invading, and everything to lose.
  - thematrixturtle 4y ago
    Could you point us to China saying that? AFAIK China's policy is precisely the opposite: they've repeatedly made it very clear they will use military force if Taiwan ever proclaims independence.
    - trasz 4y ago
      No - they made it clear that they will use military force if US invades Taiwan. They also made it very clear that they want peaceful solution, because their economy doesn’t depend on waging wars. Feel free to prove otherwise; note that Chinese statements are quite often misquoted.
      - thematrixturtle 4y ago
        “If anyone dares to split Taiwan from China, the Chinese army will definitely not hesitate to start a war no matter the cost,” Defence Minister Wei Fenghe said during a meeting with Lloyd Austin on Friday. “The PLA [People’s Liberation Army] would have no choice but to fight … and crush any attempt of Taiwan independence, safeguarding national sovereignty and territorial integrity.” https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/10/china-tells-us-it-will-not-hesitate-to-start-war-over-taiwan https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/10/china-tells-us-it-w...