4 ms·

> I've read through most comments, and it's what you would expect from a group of largely white, upper class, men I'll hazard some unsolicited advice: besides

> I've read through most comments, and it's what you would expect from a group of largely white, upper class, men I'll hazard some unsolicited advice: besides being boring and morally reprehensible, tropes only diminish your credibility. > I've read through most comments, and it's what you would expect from a group of largely white, upper class, men - a philosophical debate that barely even touches on the real experiences of women and minorities who will be the ones whose lives are most affected as a result of the new laws being passed. There has been virtually no appetite to discuss the women who have had negative abortion experiences over the last 50 years (or at least not in my lifetime) under Roe v. Wade whether minority or otherwise. Cherry-picking experiences isn't a good formulation for constructive public debate. > No matter when a life begins, the posters here on HN feel they will largely be unaffected, so the debate remains in the clouds. On the contrary, it's such a serious topic that it deserves a dispassioned treatment. This is genuinely the first time I've seen an abortion debate that doesn't immediately devolve into "you want to murder babies" and "you want to oppress women". It's good to challenge our emotions with reason. > The post-Roe era will be blanket and extreme abortion bans wherever the GOP has full control. They are telegraphing this and many posters here are seemingly willfully blind to what they have in store. So far they have said they desire to pass the most extreme bans possible regarding abortion at a national level, and when they are done with that they are coming after contraception, gay marriage, and even sexual acts they find distasteful. I don't know why anyone here is dismissing the possibility as far-fetched. It's pretty hard to believe Republicans in general are coming for things like gay marriage when 55% of Republicans approve of it per a 2022 Gallup poll (I would imagine conservatives approve of contraception even more). I think perhaps the left-wing media may be exaggerating right now, as partisan media are want to do. I think it's a good idea to establish legislative protections for these things, particularly by building a broad, bipartisan coalition (maybe take lessons from the gay rights movement, considering its remarkable success in reversing even Republican opinion). If Republicans want to pander to their extreme wings, then take their moderates (reverse the 2016-2022 trend).

ModernMech 4y ago
> tropes only diminish your credibility. And yet there is a reason the discussion here barely touches on women. We know how the demographics of HN skew, and that creates a huge bias in the discussion here. We shouldn't naval gaze through this debate, and instead recognize that of the hundreds of comments here going in circles about stealing kidneys, hypothetically poisoning people, and hypothetical lives born or dying, there are real people who are actually in harms way right now due to laws being passed. > There has been virtually no appetite to discuss the women who have had negative abortion experiences over the last 50 years There's definitely an appetite, but is there space? It's certainly not created here. > it's such a serious topic that it deserves a dispassioned treatment. Maybe it deserves a dispassionate treatment (I'm certainly not going to provide that), but certainly not a myopic one. The high-minded philosophical arguments here miss the forest for the trees in my opinion. > It's pretty hard to believe Republicans in general are coming for things like gay marriage when 55% of Republicans approve of it per a 2022 Gallup poll Republicans "in general" aren't who I'm talking about; I'm talking about politicians. If you haven't noticed, gerrymandering has created a situation where Republicans can choose their voters, so they remain in power no matter how extreme their positions. Maybe also flying under your radar is a complete disdain among many Republicans for the concept of elections and democracy as a concept. Perhaps you haven't noticed that the Supreme Court will soon decide on a case that determines whether state legislatures are able to have complete control, without judicial review, of their election results? Frankly, it doesn't matter what Republicans writ large want. The extremists have taken control of the party, and they are stacking the deck to make sure they never have to lose an election again. Last time they lost an election they literally plotted and attempted to execute a coup. Now they are trying to make what they did in 2020 legal. What do you think happens next? Genuine question there.
- smsm42 4y ago
  > so they remain in power no matter how extreme their positions If you watched actual Republican primaries, as opposed to reading about scary Republicans on Twitter, you'd see this is wildly inaccurate - there is substantial variety among Republican positions, and there are things which different Republican voters (gasp! Republicans voter can differ!) are willing and not willing to tolerate. Which kinda would be expected from a party uniting tens of millions of people, if you think about it a bit... > Maybe also flying under your radar is a complete disdain among many Republicans for the concept of elections and democracy as a concept. This is also wildly false - if anything, Republicans are very upset right now exactly because they feel the concept of elections is under attack. Whether it is true or not, it's exactly the opposite of what would happen if they disdained the concept of elections. > and they are stacking the deck to make sure they never have to lose an election again This canard is dusted off on every election, and it is as false today as it was first time when it was invented. Nobody is ensuring "they never have to lose an election again", however sweet that may sound to a partisan ear, and it's not possible for Republicans even more given that Democrats almost exclusively control large population centers. Yes, there are places where Republicans routinely win (as there are places where Democrats routinely win) - it's not a nefarious conspiracy, it's a demographic fact. But this will never become everywhere, elections in the US in general has always been competitive, and remain so. > Last time they lost an election they literally plotted and attempted to execute a coup. No they did not. They had a protest. Which led to nothing except Democrats trying to milk it for the last drops of that sweet partisan outrage juice for the last year and a half. That's all there was. > Now they are trying to make what they did in 2020 legal. What they did in 2020 - namely protesting - already is legal. What some of them did - like fighting with the police, stealing things and vandalizing things - is not legal, and nobody is trying to make it legal. > What do you think happens next? Genuine question there. Next there will be 2022 elections where Democrats suffer some serious drubbing due to Presidential party routinely suffering drubbing in the midterms, compounded by dismal performance of the current President and generally unfavorable surrounding conditions. Some Democrats (not the smartest ones) will scream the democracy is dead in the US and fascism has been finally installed, and this is the last elections ever. Then there would be 2024 elections as usual, with the usual appropriate screaming and running around from parties involved. I have no idea who would win, but I am sure it'd be as close as ever, and whatever party wins, the other party would claim the election has been stolen and the democracy in the US has ended and fascism has been installed. The democracy will continue as it did for the last 250 years.

ModernMech 4y ago

> tropes only diminish your credibility. And yet there is a reason the discussion here barely touches on women. We know how the demographics of HN skew, and that creates a huge bias in the discussion here. We shouldn't naval gaze through this debate, and instead recognize that of the hundreds of comments here going in circles about stealing kidneys, hypothetically poisoning people, and hypothetical lives born or dying, there are real people who are actually in harms way right now due to laws being passed. > There has been virtually no appetite to discuss the women who have had negative abortion experiences over the last 50 years There's definitely an appetite, but is there space? It's certainly not created here. > it's such a serious topic that it deserves a dispassioned treatment. Maybe it deserves a dispassionate treatment (I'm certainly not going to provide that), but certainly not a myopic one. The high-minded philosophical arguments here miss the forest for the trees in my opinion. > It's pretty hard to believe Republicans in general are coming for things like gay marriage when 55% of Republicans approve of it per a 2022 Gallup poll Republicans "in general" aren't who I'm talking about; I'm talking about politicians. If you haven't noticed, gerrymandering has created a situation where Republicans can choose their voters, so they remain in power no matter how extreme their positions. Maybe also flying under your radar is a complete disdain among many Republicans for the concept of elections and democracy as a concept. Perhaps you haven't noticed that the Supreme Court will soon decide on a case that determines whether state legislatures are able to have complete control, without judicial review, of their election results? Frankly, it doesn't matter what Republicans writ large want. The extremists have taken control of the party, and they are stacking the deck to make sure they never have to lose an election again. Last time they lost an election they literally plotted and attempted to execute a coup. Now they are trying to make what they did in 2020 legal. What do you think happens next? Genuine question there.

smsm42 4y ago
> so they remain in power no matter how extreme their positions If you watched actual Republican primaries, as opposed to reading about scary Republicans on Twitter, you'd see this is wildly inaccurate - there is substantial variety among Republican positions, and there are things which different Republican voters (gasp! Republicans voter can differ!) are willing and not willing to tolerate. Which kinda would be expected from a party uniting tens of millions of people, if you think about it a bit... > Maybe also flying under your radar is a complete disdain among many Republicans for the concept of elections and democracy as a concept. This is also wildly false - if anything, Republicans are very upset right now exactly because they feel the concept of elections is under attack. Whether it is true or not, it's exactly the opposite of what would happen if they disdained the concept of elections. > and they are stacking the deck to make sure they never have to lose an election again This canard is dusted off on every election, and it is as false today as it was first time when it was invented. Nobody is ensuring "they never have to lose an election again", however sweet that may sound to a partisan ear, and it's not possible for Republicans even more given that Democrats almost exclusively control large population centers. Yes, there are places where Republicans routinely win (as there are places where Democrats routinely win) - it's not a nefarious conspiracy, it's a demographic fact. But this will never become everywhere, elections in the US in general has always been competitive, and remain so. > Last time they lost an election they literally plotted and attempted to execute a coup. No they did not. They had a protest. Which led to nothing except Democrats trying to milk it for the last drops of that sweet partisan outrage juice for the last year and a half. That's all there was. > Now they are trying to make what they did in 2020 legal. What they did in 2020 - namely protesting - already is legal. What some of them did - like fighting with the police, stealing things and vandalizing things - is not legal, and nobody is trying to make it legal. > What do you think happens next? Genuine question there. Next there will be 2022 elections where Democrats suffer some serious drubbing due to Presidential party routinely suffering drubbing in the midterms, compounded by dismal performance of the current President and generally unfavorable surrounding conditions. Some Democrats (not the smartest ones) will scream the democracy is dead in the US and fascism has been finally installed, and this is the last elections ever. Then there would be 2024 elections as usual, with the usual appropriate screaming and running around from parties involved. I have no idea who would win, but I am sure it'd be as close as ever, and whatever party wins, the other party would claim the election has been stolen and the democracy in the US has ended and fascism has been installed. The democracy will continue as it did for the last 250 years.