8 ms·

It short circuited the political process and substituted it with legal doctrine, which lends itself to absolutist, logically consistent moral positions as oppos

It short circuited the political process and substituted it with legal doctrine, which lends itself to absolutist, logically consistent moral positions as opposed to the messy and incoherent compromises that come out of politics.

ModernMech 4y ago
And yet what we're seeing post Roe, are absolutist, logically consistent moral positions in places like Idaho, where 1 party rule has resulted in a political platform that allows no exceptions whatsoever, even for the life of the mother.
- smsm42 4y ago
  This however is a pretty recent phenomenon, I think, as a result of rushing to the extremes. I suspect this position will be moderated soon, though with current toxic political climate, it may take a bit for things to cool off so that such things would not be seen as "ceding ground to them".
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jfengel 4y ago
    Tell me about the last time you believe the political climate got less toxic.
    - smsm42 4y ago
      In early 2000s, the racial tensions in the US were less toxic. Then of course it kinda went sideways. Also, I think gay acceptance is gaining grounds. Some things are improving, though not too many, unfortunately.
- fundad 4y ago
  The no exceptions whatsoever bans are the model for the national ban that will come ones Republicans have the power to do it. If they believe all abortion is murder, what amount of murder would you expect them to tolerate?
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    - fknorangesite 4y ago
      > And it is this feeling of disconnect from the real consequences of the post-Roe era that is causing most here to completely miss the vast political project that is underway, a project that cares not for philosophical arguments, because it really cares about control and obedience. God this whole comment is a breath of fresh air. Thank you.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      > I've read through most comments, and it's what you would expect from a group of largely white, upper class, men I'll hazard some unsolicited advice: besides being boring and morally reprehensible, tropes only diminish your credibility. > I've read through most comments, and it's what you would expect from a group of largely white, upper class, men - a philosophical debate that barely even touches on the real experiences of women and minorities who will be the ones whose lives are most affected as a result of the new laws being passed. There has been virtually no appetite to discuss the women who have had negative abortion experiences over the last 50 years (or at least not in my lifetime) under Roe v. Wade whether minority or otherwise. Cherry-picking experiences isn't a good formulation for constructive public debate. > No matter when a life begins, the posters here on HN feel they will largely be unaffected, so the debate remains in the clouds. On the contrary, it's such a serious topic that it deserves a dispassioned treatment. This is genuinely the first time I've seen an abortion debate that doesn't immediately devolve into "you want to murder babies" and "you want to oppress women". It's good to challenge our emotions with reason. > The post-Roe era will be blanket and extreme abortion bans wherever the GOP has full control. They are telegraphing this and many posters here are seemingly willfully blind to what they have in store. So far they have said they desire to pass the most extreme bans possible regarding abortion at a national level, and when they are done with that they are coming after contraception, gay marriage, and even sexual acts they find distasteful. I don't know why anyone here is dismissing the possibility as far-fetched. It's pretty hard to believe Republicans in general are coming for things like gay marriage when 55% of Republicans approve of it per a 2022 Gallup poll (I would imagine conservatives approve of contraception even more). I think perhaps the left-wing media may be exaggerating right now, as partisan media are want to do. I think it's a good idea to establish legislative protections for these things, particularly by building a broad, bipartisan coalition (maybe take lessons from the gay rights movement, considering its remarkable success in reversing even Republican opinion). If Republicans want to pander to their extreme wings, then take their moderates (reverse the 2016-2022 trend).
- btilly 4y ago
  Yes, the Republican platform allows no exceptions. But the actual legislation does. If they actually try to pass their platform into law, they will discover the hard way how big a problem ectopic pregnancies are.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    We've already seen what happens when Republicans encounter the uncomfortable reality of the laws they are passing, in the case of the 10-year old Ohio girl. First they claimed it didn't happen, then they attacked the doctor, then they deflected to the issue of immigration claiming that was the real problem. This is all true to form. Ectopic pregnancies are not a problem for Republicans because they are not the ones dying from those pregnancies. They don't care about the electoral ramifications because they maintain impenetrable strongholds in the states where these laws are being passed. It's not that they are passing the laws and will find out the consequences; they know the consequences (they're not dumb) and feel safe passing the laws regardless.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      I'm not a Republican, but I think you can make strong points without the inflammatory rhetoric. In fact, I think your rhetoric weakens your argument--Republican women obviously aren't biologically different from Democratic or independent women, they can all suffer from ectopic pregnancy, and Republican women would have the most to lose considering they're presumably more likely to live in states where these laws are passed. Moreover, to the point of this thread, the proper solution is legislative (at the national level) rather than judicial--pass reasonable abortion legislation at the national level.
      - btilly 4y ago
        By what enumerated power does Congress acquire the power to legislate on abortion?
        throwaway894345 4y ago

ModernMech 4y ago

And yet what we're seeing post Roe, are absolutist, logically consistent moral positions in places like Idaho, where 1 party rule has resulted in a political platform that allows no exceptions whatsoever, even for the life of the mother.

smsm42 4y ago
This however is a pretty recent phenomenon, I think, as a result of rushing to the extremes. I suspect this position will be moderated soon, though with current toxic political climate, it may take a bit for things to cool off so that such things would not be seen as "ceding ground to them".
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jfengel 4y ago
  Tell me about the last time you believe the political climate got less toxic.
  - smsm42 4y ago
    In early 2000s, the racial tensions in the US were less toxic. Then of course it kinda went sideways. Also, I think gay acceptance is gaining grounds. Some things are improving, though not too many, unfortunately.
fundad 4y ago
The no exceptions whatsoever bans are the model for the national ban that will come ones Republicans have the power to do it. If they believe all abortion is murder, what amount of murder would you expect them to tolerate?
- ModernMech 4y ago
  - fknorangesite 4y ago
    > And it is this feeling of disconnect from the real consequences of the post-Roe era that is causing most here to completely miss the vast political project that is underway, a project that cares not for philosophical arguments, because it really cares about control and obedience. God this whole comment is a breath of fresh air. Thank you.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    > I've read through most comments, and it's what you would expect from a group of largely white, upper class, men I'll hazard some unsolicited advice: besides being boring and morally reprehensible, tropes only diminish your credibility. > I've read through most comments, and it's what you would expect from a group of largely white, upper class, men - a philosophical debate that barely even touches on the real experiences of women and minorities who will be the ones whose lives are most affected as a result of the new laws being passed. There has been virtually no appetite to discuss the women who have had negative abortion experiences over the last 50 years (or at least not in my lifetime) under Roe v. Wade whether minority or otherwise. Cherry-picking experiences isn't a good formulation for constructive public debate. > No matter when a life begins, the posters here on HN feel they will largely be unaffected, so the debate remains in the clouds. On the contrary, it's such a serious topic that it deserves a dispassioned treatment. This is genuinely the first time I've seen an abortion debate that doesn't immediately devolve into "you want to murder babies" and "you want to oppress women". It's good to challenge our emotions with reason. > The post-Roe era will be blanket and extreme abortion bans wherever the GOP has full control. They are telegraphing this and many posters here are seemingly willfully blind to what they have in store. So far they have said they desire to pass the most extreme bans possible regarding abortion at a national level, and when they are done with that they are coming after contraception, gay marriage, and even sexual acts they find distasteful. I don't know why anyone here is dismissing the possibility as far-fetched. It's pretty hard to believe Republicans in general are coming for things like gay marriage when 55% of Republicans approve of it per a 2022 Gallup poll (I would imagine conservatives approve of contraception even more). I think perhaps the left-wing media may be exaggerating right now, as partisan media are want to do. I think it's a good idea to establish legislative protections for these things, particularly by building a broad, bipartisan coalition (maybe take lessons from the gay rights movement, considering its remarkable success in reversing even Republican opinion). If Republicans want to pander to their extreme wings, then take their moderates (reverse the 2016-2022 trend).
btilly 4y ago
Yes, the Republican platform allows no exceptions. But the actual legislation does. If they actually try to pass their platform into law, they will discover the hard way how big a problem ectopic pregnancies are.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  We've already seen what happens when Republicans encounter the uncomfortable reality of the laws they are passing, in the case of the 10-year old Ohio girl. First they claimed it didn't happen, then they attacked the doctor, then they deflected to the issue of immigration claiming that was the real problem. This is all true to form. Ectopic pregnancies are not a problem for Republicans because they are not the ones dying from those pregnancies. They don't care about the electoral ramifications because they maintain impenetrable strongholds in the states where these laws are being passed. It's not that they are passing the laws and will find out the consequences; they know the consequences (they're not dumb) and feel safe passing the laws regardless.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I'm not a Republican, but I think you can make strong points without the inflammatory rhetoric. In fact, I think your rhetoric weakens your argument--Republican women obviously aren't biologically different from Democratic or independent women, they can all suffer from ectopic pregnancy, and Republican women would have the most to lose considering they're presumably more likely to live in states where these laws are passed. Moreover, to the point of this thread, the proper solution is legislative (at the national level) rather than judicial--pass reasonable abortion legislation at the national level.
    - btilly 4y ago
      By what enumerated power does Congress acquire the power to legislate on abortion?
      - throwaway894345 4y ago