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> (including some advocating for "after-birth abortions") Could you double-check that? I've never heard this, but I've seen a couple of pro-life groups say tha

> (including some advocating for "after-birth abortions") Could you double-check that? I've never heard this, but I've seen a couple of pro-life groups say that pro-choice groups are advocating for that, as a sort of propaganda to equate not just abortion with murder, but abortion providers with murderers too.

geekbird 4y ago
Yeah, IME that's what the anti-choice folks say about the pro-choice folks, but I've never heard it from actual pro-choice folks. Yes, there is some joking about "post natal abortions" for certain extremist politicians, but it's never serious about permitting after-birth abortions".
- scarmig 4y ago
  I think Peter Singer at one point argued in earnest for legal infanticide in certain situations, but I'm not sure of his current position, and regardless infanticide is far from representative of mainstream pro-choice discourse.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  > anti-choice FYI, "anti-choice" is a pejorative, as is "pro-abortion" for pro-choice people. Let's steer clear of mudslinging on such a controversial topic, so as to avoid a flamewar. :)
  - jfengel 4y ago
    "Anti-choice" is purely descriptive. They are opposed to you having that choice. It's less pejorative than the implication that "pro-life" connotes that the opposition is "anti-life". Few pro-lifers seem to put any effort into guaranteeing life for anybody -- often in favor of capital punishment, and practically never advocating policies that preserve life such as health care. "Anti-choice" is about the most dispassionate, accurate label I can apply. There is a choice that the wish to deny. Any other term is a euphemism.
    - smsm42 4y ago
      "Choice" is a weasel word here. You could call the Criminal Code "anti-choice" - because it limits choices of a wannabe criminal by threatening to put them in jail if they do things that are prohibited by the code. And there's not a word of lie in it - the code limits your choices. But this is a description so reduced that the reduction itself becomes the lie - you throw out the important part, that the choices we want to restrict are restricted for an important reason, not just because we hate people having choice. Proper term would be "anti-abortion" if the person opposes abortion, not "anti-choice" - because they do not oppose choice as a principle, they oppose one specific choice, and it's a crucial distinction in this case.
jandrese 4y ago
"After-birth abortions" just sounds like hospice issues. Are you obligated to leave a person plugged into a life support machine if they have no reasonable hope of recovery and can not survive without the machine? Trying to bring it into the abortion debate is just muddying the waters.

geekbird 4y ago

Yeah, IME that's what the anti-choice folks say about the pro-choice folks, but I've never heard it from actual pro-choice folks. Yes, there is some joking about "post natal abortions" for certain extremist politicians, but it's never serious about permitting after-birth abortions".

scarmig 4y ago
I think Peter Singer at one point argued in earnest for legal infanticide in certain situations, but I'm not sure of his current position, and regardless infanticide is far from representative of mainstream pro-choice discourse.
throwaway894345 4y ago
> anti-choice FYI, "anti-choice" is a pejorative, as is "pro-abortion" for pro-choice people. Let's steer clear of mudslinging on such a controversial topic, so as to avoid a flamewar. :)
- jfengel 4y ago
  "Anti-choice" is purely descriptive. They are opposed to you having that choice. It's less pejorative than the implication that "pro-life" connotes that the opposition is "anti-life". Few pro-lifers seem to put any effort into guaranteeing life for anybody -- often in favor of capital punishment, and practically never advocating policies that preserve life such as health care. "Anti-choice" is about the most dispassionate, accurate label I can apply. There is a choice that the wish to deny. Any other term is a euphemism.
  - smsm42 4y ago
    "Choice" is a weasel word here. You could call the Criminal Code "anti-choice" - because it limits choices of a wannabe criminal by threatening to put them in jail if they do things that are prohibited by the code. And there's not a word of lie in it - the code limits your choices. But this is a description so reduced that the reduction itself becomes the lie - you throw out the important part, that the choices we want to restrict are restricted for an important reason, not just because we hate people having choice. Proper term would be "anti-abortion" if the person opposes abortion, not "anti-choice" - because they do not oppose choice as a principle, they oppose one specific choice, and it's a crucial distinction in this case.

jandrese 4y ago

"After-birth abortions" just sounds like hospice issues. Are you obligated to leave a person plugged into a life support machine if they have no reasonable hope of recovery and can not survive without the machine? Trying to bring it into the abortion debate is just muddying the waters.