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Can you find a single example of an abortion being done at 32 weeks? As far as I know there's virtually no way of doing so (vs premature live delivery) that wou

Can you find a single example of an abortion being done at 32 weeks? As far as I know there's virtually no way of doing so (vs premature live delivery) that wouldn't result in life-threatening harm to the mother. Is abandoning a child under your guardianship really a criminal act in most jurisdictions in the US?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 4y ago
Killing your child by depriving them of your support is absolutely a crime in every US jurisdiction.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  A sibling post to mine suggested that was not so. Some googling suggests it's a "felony". I'm not even 100% sure what the situation is in my own country - it's hard to imagine there's a significant number of mothers of sound mind who would deliberately abandon their child such that it has no chance of survival. Not that I believe it has significant relevance to the abortion criminalisation debate either way.
  - rcoveson 4y ago
    > Can you find a single example of an abortion being done at 32 weeks? > it's hard to imagine there's a significant number of mothers of sound mind who would deliberately abandon their child such that it has no chance of survival. I don't see how either of these quotes fit into a discussion about abortion/childcare law. Shouldn't the law make as clear as possible when it is illegal to abort a pregnancy or give up the care of an infant? The argument that "nobody will ever/has ever (that we can think of) do something so horrible as that" does nothing but muddy the water. Let's just assume that at least one person in the future wants to abort their healthy 39 week fetus, and at least one person in the future wants to abandon their infant. These would hardly be the most surprisingly immoral things ever done by human beings.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      No, but using extreme possible scenarios as a basis for criminal law hardly seems like a sensible strategy either. Criminalising certain activities always has consequences. If the threat of being thrown in gaol for abandoning an infant really does have the desired preventative properties, and doesn't lead to other unintended consequences (e.g. women choosing abortion or attempting an unsupervised birth instead if they're at all concerned they'll be unable to care for the child, and risk being gaoled for abandoning it), then sure, criminalise it. Both seem like unlikely propositions to me.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    In my county a woman was charged with first degree murder last year for abandoning her baby to die: https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/anne-arundel-glen-burnie-child-abandonment/ https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/anne-arundel-glen-bur... Criminal laws exist in part to express society’s moral norms. Abandoning babies to die isn’t illegal because it’s a widespread problem. It’s illegal because it’s wrong. But if your point is that the Venn Diagram intersection between pro-choicers and folks who want to decriminalize infanticide is not a null set you’ve made it.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      Charged with attempted first degree murder. But thanks for the link. And while I accept laws do exist to enforce societal norms, if the effect of those laws is to make matters worse, they're still bad laws. I can't say I have a strong position on infanticide. There are undoubtedly cut and dried cases where an adult deliberately terminates the life of a newborn baby that should be classified as criminal acts. Abandoning your own child probably deserves a separate legal classification.
tablespoon 4y ago
> Can you find a single example of an abortion being done at 32 weeks? As far as I know there's virtually no way of doing so (vs premature live delivery) that wouldn't result in life-threatening harm to the mother. Is abandoning a child under your guardianship really a criminal act in most jurisdictions in the US? Not exactly 32 weeks, but close: https://abcnews.go.com/US/abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell-guilty-degree-murder/story?id=19168967 https://abcnews.go.com/US/abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell-gui...: > "Gosnell had a simple solution for the unwanted babies he delivered. ... The way he ensured fetal demise was by sticking scissors into the back of the baby's neck and cutting the spinal cord. He called that 'snipping,'" the report alleged. https://www.foxnews.com/us/doctor-kermit-gosnell-found-guilty-of-murdering-infants-in-late-term-abortions https://www.foxnews.com/us/doctor-kermit-gosnell-found-guilt...: > Prosecution experts said one was nearly 30 weeks along when it was aborted, and it was so big that Gosnell allegedly joked it could "walk to the bus." A second fetus was said to be alive for some 20 minutes before a clinic worker snipped its neck. A third was born in a toilet and was moving before another clinic employee grabbed it and severed its spinal cord, according to testimony. Baby E let out a soft whimper before Gosnell cut its neck, the jury was told; Gosnell was acquitted in that baby's death.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Wow. Unfortunately I imagine we'll see a lot more of that sort of thing as more and more women are unable to access safe/legal/well-regulated abortion clinics.
  - mbg721 4y ago
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > Wow. Unfortunately I imagine we'll see a lot more of that sort of thing as more and more women are unable to access safe/legal/well-regulated abortion clinics. IIRC, all that stuff was done in an actual licensed abortion clinic. Also you have a weird kind of argument that seems to pivot on the false assumption that the issue is how gruesome the act is, not the act itself.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rayiner 4y ago

Killing your child by depriving them of your support is absolutely a crime in every US jurisdiction.

wizofaus 4y ago
A sibling post to mine suggested that was not so. Some googling suggests it's a "felony". I'm not even 100% sure what the situation is in my own country - it's hard to imagine there's a significant number of mothers of sound mind who would deliberately abandon their child such that it has no chance of survival. Not that I believe it has significant relevance to the abortion criminalisation debate either way.
- rcoveson 4y ago
  > Can you find a single example of an abortion being done at 32 weeks? > it's hard to imagine there's a significant number of mothers of sound mind who would deliberately abandon their child such that it has no chance of survival. I don't see how either of these quotes fit into a discussion about abortion/childcare law. Shouldn't the law make as clear as possible when it is illegal to abort a pregnancy or give up the care of an infant? The argument that "nobody will ever/has ever (that we can think of) do something so horrible as that" does nothing but muddy the water. Let's just assume that at least one person in the future wants to abort their healthy 39 week fetus, and at least one person in the future wants to abandon their infant. These would hardly be the most surprisingly immoral things ever done by human beings.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    No, but using extreme possible scenarios as a basis for criminal law hardly seems like a sensible strategy either. Criminalising certain activities always has consequences. If the threat of being thrown in gaol for abandoning an infant really does have the desired preventative properties, and doesn't lead to other unintended consequences (e.g. women choosing abortion or attempting an unsupervised birth instead if they're at all concerned they'll be unable to care for the child, and risk being gaoled for abandoning it), then sure, criminalise it. Both seem like unlikely propositions to me.
- rayiner 4y ago
  In my county a woman was charged with first degree murder last year for abandoning her baby to die: https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/anne-arundel-glen-burnie-child-abandonment/ https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/anne-arundel-glen-bur... Criminal laws exist in part to express society’s moral norms. Abandoning babies to die isn’t illegal because it’s a widespread problem. It’s illegal because it’s wrong. But if your point is that the Venn Diagram intersection between pro-choicers and folks who want to decriminalize infanticide is not a null set you’ve made it.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Charged with attempted first degree murder. But thanks for the link. And while I accept laws do exist to enforce societal norms, if the effect of those laws is to make matters worse, they're still bad laws. I can't say I have a strong position on infanticide. There are undoubtedly cut and dried cases where an adult deliberately terminates the life of a newborn baby that should be classified as criminal acts. Abandoning your own child probably deserves a separate legal classification.

tablespoon 4y ago

> Can you find a single example of an abortion being done at 32 weeks? As far as I know there's virtually no way of doing so (vs premature live delivery) that wouldn't result in life-threatening harm to the mother. Is abandoning a child under your guardianship really a criminal act in most jurisdictions in the US? Not exactly 32 weeks, but close: https://abcnews.go.com/US/abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell-guilty-degree-murder/story?id=19168967 https://abcnews.go.com/US/abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell-gui...: > "Gosnell had a simple solution for the unwanted babies he delivered. ... The way he ensured fetal demise was by sticking scissors into the back of the baby's neck and cutting the spinal cord. He called that 'snipping,'" the report alleged. https://www.foxnews.com/us/doctor-kermit-gosnell-found-guilty-of-murdering-infants-in-late-term-abortions https://www.foxnews.com/us/doctor-kermit-gosnell-found-guilt...: > Prosecution experts said one was nearly 30 weeks along when it was aborted, and it was so big that Gosnell allegedly joked it could "walk to the bus." A second fetus was said to be alive for some 20 minutes before a clinic worker snipped its neck. A third was born in a toilet and was moving before another clinic employee grabbed it and severed its spinal cord, according to testimony. Baby E let out a soft whimper before Gosnell cut its neck, the jury was told; Gosnell was acquitted in that baby's death.

wizofaus 4y ago
Wow. Unfortunately I imagine we'll see a lot more of that sort of thing as more and more women are unable to access safe/legal/well-regulated abortion clinics.
- mbg721 4y ago
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > Wow. Unfortunately I imagine we'll see a lot more of that sort of thing as more and more women are unable to access safe/legal/well-regulated abortion clinics. IIRC, all that stuff was done in an actual licensed abortion clinic. Also you have a weird kind of argument that seems to pivot on the false assumption that the issue is how gruesome the act is, not the act itself.