4 ms·

The position they overturned was that the freedom was guaranteed by the 14th amendment of the US Constitution, which was passed by Congress.

btilly 4y ago
That isn't how amendments are made. They have to pass Congress and the Senate with a 2/3 majority and then be ratified by 3/4 of the states. Congress alone can't change the Consitution.
- robotresearcher 4y ago
  Congress doesn't pass any laws by itself [1], so of course I wasn't claiming it changed the Constitution alone. But Congress did indeed pass the 14th Amendment. [1] "In order to pass [ordinary] legislation and send it to the President for his or her signature, both the House and the Senate must pass the same bill by majority vote. If the President vetoes a bill, they may override his veto by passing the bill again in each chamber with at least two-thirds of each body voting in favor." https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/our-government/the-legislative-branch/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/our-governm...
  - btilly 4y ago
    You found the procedure for something completely unrelated. The procedure for amendments is specified in https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/article-v.html https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/artic.... There are two procedures, only one of which has ever been used. In that procedure Congress *PROPOSES AN AMENDMENT* (with a 2/3 vote in both houses), then 3/4 of the states have to ratify it within 7 years. Also no involvement from the President is required. Therefore Congress never passed the 14th amendment. It *PROPOSED* it. And the distinction is significant because Congress itself lacks authority to amend the Constitution.
    - robotresearcher 4y ago
      Your last message: > Therefore Congress never passed the 14th amendment Your previous message: > [Amendments] have to pass Congress and the Senate Which would be a contradiction given the existence of the 14th Amendment. So it seems like you're able to use 'pass' in the general sense of formally approve/propose/support when it's a reasonable shorthand. Me too.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Congress doesn't pass any laws by itself It does when it overrides a veto. > But Congress did indeed pass the 14th Amendment. No, it proposed it.
    - robotresearcher 4y ago
      Sure. I see the distinction. I stand corrected. My point is unchanged: the legal position in effect from Roe until the Dobbs opinion was that the constitutional guarantee of personal liberty through the 14th Amendment would include abortion. Congress, being a party to the Constitution, had thus already spoken on the matter. The new decision overturns that position.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > They have to pass Congress and the Senate The Senate is part of Congress. You mean something like “they need to be proposed by the concurrence of 2/3 of both the House and Senate, or by a convention called for by the legislatures of 2/3 of the states.”

btilly 4y ago

That isn't how amendments are made. They have to pass Congress and the Senate with a 2/3 majority and then be ratified by 3/4 of the states. Congress alone can't change the Consitution.

robotresearcher 4y ago
Congress doesn't pass any laws by itself [1], so of course I wasn't claiming it changed the Constitution alone. But Congress did indeed pass the 14th Amendment. [1] "In order to pass [ordinary] legislation and send it to the President for his or her signature, both the House and the Senate must pass the same bill by majority vote. If the President vetoes a bill, they may override his veto by passing the bill again in each chamber with at least two-thirds of each body voting in favor." https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/our-government/the-legislative-branch/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/our-governm...
- btilly 4y ago
  You found the procedure for something completely unrelated. The procedure for amendments is specified in https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/article-v.html https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/artic.... There are two procedures, only one of which has ever been used. In that procedure Congress *PROPOSES AN AMENDMENT* (with a 2/3 vote in both houses), then 3/4 of the states have to ratify it within 7 years. Also no involvement from the President is required. Therefore Congress never passed the 14th amendment. It *PROPOSED* it. And the distinction is significant because Congress itself lacks authority to amend the Constitution.
  - robotresearcher 4y ago
    Your last message: > Therefore Congress never passed the 14th amendment Your previous message: > [Amendments] have to pass Congress and the Senate Which would be a contradiction given the existence of the 14th Amendment. So it seems like you're able to use 'pass' in the general sense of formally approve/propose/support when it's a reasonable shorthand. Me too.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Congress doesn't pass any laws by itself It does when it overrides a veto. > But Congress did indeed pass the 14th Amendment. No, it proposed it.
  - robotresearcher 4y ago
    Sure. I see the distinction. I stand corrected. My point is unchanged: the legal position in effect from Roe until the Dobbs opinion was that the constitutional guarantee of personal liberty through the 14th Amendment would include abortion. Congress, being a party to the Constitution, had thus already spoken on the matter. The new decision overturns that position.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> They have to pass Congress and the Senate The Senate is part of Congress. You mean something like “they need to be proposed by the concurrence of 2/3 of both the House and Senate, or by a convention called for by the legislatures of 2/3 of the states.”