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> My spouse, with about a decade of teaching experience at the time, once had a former student drop out of high school and start working at as a gas station cle

by mlyle 4y ago

> My spouse, with about a decade of teaching experience at the time, once had a former student drop out of high school and start working at as a gas station clerk at a major chain. OK, I've already said I think this is unjust. Please read my comments and understand context. I just do not think this is a path to increase educational performance, particularly in the short to intermediate run. > where the fuck is that hand-wringing when CEO pay comes up at board meetings? Any pro sports teams worrying they might pay too much to attract good players? I feel like you're not understanding the distinction between: A) paying a premium within a profession to get the top candidate and B) increasing pay broadly to get a higher level of performance from existing practitioners and C) to get more able candidates into a profession or retain them. > you get some good people who are semi-retired from a better-earning career [raises hand] > since teacher social status is somewhere under the floor IMO this is the biggest problem. And, indeed, teachers will take even lower pay to be in a private school situation with a parent community and student community that values education.

corrral 4y ago
> IMO this is the biggest problem. And, indeed, teachers will take even lower pay to be in a private school situation with a parent community and student community that values education. Lots of private schools pay worse than public schools, true, and do indeed draw teachers who are decent-to-good but sick of putting up with public school admin and parent bullshit—for reasons that are obvious if you think about it, but perhaps not intuitively obvious, private schools are less beholden to any one parent than public schools are, and are much better positioned to firmly tell them "no"—but once you start to get into actually-good private school territory[0] pay and appreciation (and to a some extent social status, at least within a certain circle) match or beat area public schools, typically. [0] A very high percentage of private schools are not good, though—"how can that be? How do they keep getting enough students to stay open, in a competitive market that includes 'free' as an option?"—politics and religion, is the answer, and they can under-perform on academics year after year as long as they're delivering the message the parents want on those fronts. Incidentally, the teachers these schools draw with their lower pay aren't always leaving public education over legitimate bullshit, but often over perceived bullshit like "they wouldn't let me talk about Jesus as much as I'd like", and these are usually not good ones that the public schools are losing to private schools, but ones who we'd want to leave public education.
- mlyle 4y ago
  > but once you start to get into actually-good private school territory This just isn't true of the SF Bay Area. When you look at the very top, like Harker, Nueva, etc-- salary may slightly edge above public school pay for some portions of the scale, but is still behind when you consider total comp. > appreciation (and to a some extent social status, at least within a certain circle) I feel appreciated and valued by our parent community, and I do not feel like there are many that look down their nose at me. (And, given my background, I'm just kinda amused by the group that do). I also have total "easy mode" when it comes to behavior management. Students that don't even know me come into the room predisposed to think I have important things to say and to work hard. > A very high percentage of private schools are not good, though Oh, believe me, I know about the crummy sectarian schools, and the crummy for-profit "highly academic" academies. I am not talking about that. (I don't think many of these are very good teaching environments, either...) > private schools are less beholden to any one parent than public schools are This is very complicated and probably out of scope for this discussion. > and are much better positioned to firmly tell them "no" Once you have a wait list, this is true.
  - corrral 4y ago
    Sorry, by the way, if I've misunderstood or misread some of your posts. I'm truly not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, and expect we agree much more than we disagree, overall. Also: yes, I'm sure you're right about your local market, and part of the problem discussing these things is that the situation in schools varies greatly state-by-state and region-by-region, so it's easy to get wrong ideas about things—teachers unions might be so powerful they're part of the problem, in some places, but in others they barely have any power at all so those very-common "teacher's unions are out of control and that's the main problem with education!" takes come off as something from another universe, or teacher comp might be borderline-OK in some places, but really, really isn't in others. Some places, there are five private schools in a 30-minute drive that charge $40+k/yr and are all pretty good or even excellent—others, there are five private schools in a 30-minute drive and they all charge $12k/yr or less and are all terrible (but do cater to religious and/or political preferences). It's a highly heterogenous field.
teacherscrub18 4y ago
To be fair, I don't think your posts are making the distinction between A B and C. I would say A and C are both reasonable. To get higher performance out of existing candidates, you would need a metric for performance... I am unfortunately not aware of one that is robust enough to be used.
- mlyle 4y ago
  To do A you need a good metric, which as you point out we don't have. Of course, it's also zero-sum. You might be able to do B with pay for performance if you had a good metric. C might make things significantly better 10 years from now-- increasing the size of the candidate pool. Of course, this requires you be able to adequately measure candidates, too. I think we should increase teacher pay. I don't think it changes much soon in the quality of education. I do think improving teacher working conditions--- especially the ones that infuriate teachers because they have well articulated justifications of worsening student outcomes--- can improve all of the above.

by mlyle 4y ago

corrral 4y ago

> IMO this is the biggest problem. And, indeed, teachers will take even lower pay to be in a private school situation with a parent community and student community that values education. Lots of private schools pay worse than public schools, true, and do indeed draw teachers who are decent-to-good but sick of putting up with public school admin and parent bullshit—for reasons that are obvious if you think about it, but perhaps not intuitively obvious, private schools are less beholden to any one parent than public schools are, and are much better positioned to firmly tell them "no"—but once you start to get into actually-good private school territory[0] pay and appreciation (and to a some extent social status, at least within a certain circle) match or beat area public schools, typically. [0] A very high percentage of private schools are not good, though—"how can that be? How do they keep getting enough students to stay open, in a competitive market that includes 'free' as an option?"—politics and religion, is the answer, and they can under-perform on academics year after year as long as they're delivering the message the parents want on those fronts. Incidentally, the teachers these schools draw with their lower pay aren't always leaving public education over legitimate bullshit, but often over perceived bullshit like "they wouldn't let me talk about Jesus as much as I'd like", and these are usually not good ones that the public schools are losing to private schools, but ones who we'd want to leave public education.

mlyle 4y ago
> but once you start to get into actually-good private school territory This just isn't true of the SF Bay Area. When you look at the very top, like Harker, Nueva, etc-- salary may slightly edge above public school pay for some portions of the scale, but is still behind when you consider total comp. > appreciation (and to a some extent social status, at least within a certain circle) I feel appreciated and valued by our parent community, and I do not feel like there are many that look down their nose at me. (And, given my background, I'm just kinda amused by the group that do). I also have total "easy mode" when it comes to behavior management. Students that don't even know me come into the room predisposed to think I have important things to say and to work hard. > A very high percentage of private schools are not good, though Oh, believe me, I know about the crummy sectarian schools, and the crummy for-profit "highly academic" academies. I am not talking about that. (I don't think many of these are very good teaching environments, either...) > private schools are less beholden to any one parent than public schools are This is very complicated and probably out of scope for this discussion. > and are much better positioned to firmly tell them "no" Once you have a wait list, this is true.
- corrral 4y ago
  Sorry, by the way, if I've misunderstood or misread some of your posts. I'm truly not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, and expect we agree much more than we disagree, overall. Also: yes, I'm sure you're right about your local market, and part of the problem discussing these things is that the situation in schools varies greatly state-by-state and region-by-region, so it's easy to get wrong ideas about things—teachers unions might be so powerful they're part of the problem, in some places, but in others they barely have any power at all so those very-common "teacher's unions are out of control and that's the main problem with education!" takes come off as something from another universe, or teacher comp might be borderline-OK in some places, but really, really isn't in others. Some places, there are five private schools in a 30-minute drive that charge $40+k/yr and are all pretty good or even excellent—others, there are five private schools in a 30-minute drive and they all charge $12k/yr or less and are all terrible (but do cater to religious and/or political preferences). It's a highly heterogenous field.

teacherscrub18 4y ago

To be fair, I don't think your posts are making the distinction between A B and C. I would say A and C are both reasonable. To get higher performance out of existing candidates, you would need a metric for performance... I am unfortunately not aware of one that is robust enough to be used.

mlyle 4y ago
To do A you need a good metric, which as you point out we don't have. Of course, it's also zero-sum. You might be able to do B with pay for performance if you had a good metric. C might make things significantly better 10 years from now-- increasing the size of the candidate pool. Of course, this requires you be able to adequately measure candidates, too. I think we should increase teacher pay. I don't think it changes much soon in the quality of education. I do think improving teacher working conditions--- especially the ones that infuriate teachers because they have well articulated justifications of worsening student outcomes--- can improve all of the above.