4 ms·

> so we will make everyone equal by law and politics I hope you mean that we will treat everyone as though they were equal, not attempt to make them equal by g

> so we will make everyone equal by law and politics I hope you mean that we will treat everyone as though they were equal, not attempt to make them equal by government-enforced handicapping.

stereolambda 4y ago
Yeah, that's what I meant when I mentioned arguing the specifics. I agree that there are egalitarian extremisms that are pretty dystopic, though I think practice shows that only equality before law doesn't mean much by itself. If you ask me specifically, the extent is that everyone should have equal active participation in government and suffer no overwhelming pressure, physical, economic or otherwise from other people. Equality so that we can be free. This is more that we tend to have, but not necessarily in the "socialist" direction I think. To tie it back from an offtopic, this would make many AGI applications uneconomic, though likewise many enterprises are uneconomic if you have to pay your labor. Perhaps free societies, wherever they would be, would have the advantage of having free artificial minds acting in their actual self-interest, and not just serving their masters. You can see similar dynamic in late-18th century revolutionary wars.
- thaeli 4y ago
  Full AGI is likely uneconomic anyway. I think the sweet spot is going to be right below wherever we ultimately draw the "gets to have rights" line. There would still be good reasons to do AGI, and free artificial minds would be able to contribute greatly to society. But sufficient AI alignment to make existing systems comfortable with this is fundamentally counter to AI rights.
yucky 4y ago
That brings up a big point of contention in some circles, for instance see the recent change in wording in the official DNC party platform[1] from Racial Equality (treating people the same regardless of race) to Racial Equity (ensuring equal outcomes amongst races through government policy). [1] https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-Democratic-Party-Platform.pdf https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-Democr...
- frozencell 4y ago
  It's an interesting point you brought here. Would you like to have some async anon text chat about the Russia-Ukraine conflict and the geopolitical context and how it affects the tech world? (over Telegram/PGP for example). I cannot witness that level [1] of anti-curiosity from downvoters. [1] your comment on Azov - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31040694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31040694
spicymaki 4y ago
> not attempt to make them equal by government-enforced handicapping Are you against the ADA? The ADA forces companies to accommodate the disabled at a cost.
- hobo_in_library 4y ago
  When I read the parent comment, I imagined a panel saying: "Oh dear, Poor John there was born without a left leg. Alright, everyone else line up in front of the man with a meat cleaver"
  - YarickR2 4y ago
    Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan, for slightly less injuring idea of handicapping everyone
  - munk-a 4y ago
    It's not surprising, that's a pretty common caricature used to paint disability acts. The base root of what you're remembering is probably a short story by Kurt Vonnegut - "Harrison Bergeron"[1] which talks about an extremist approach to something beyond equality - sameness, everyone is forced to be the same. Equality and sameness are not the same, people can be treated equally and yet still allowed to retain their independence and diversity. 1. https://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html https://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
    - ehvatum 4y ago
      > Equality and sameness are not the same That’s a grossly capitalist exploitative viewpoint which overlooks hidden power structures to excuse any degree of inequality. Any difference whatsoever between anybody can be traced back to hidden power structures, and to deny this is fascism and morally equivalent to the January 6 toppling of our democracy and also slavery, which founded our nation in 1619. It’s time for a discussion of alternatives to the engine of inequality called capitalism. You see, when I buy something from you, we are both exploited in ways we know not, because they are hidden. The more you know…

> so we will make everyone equal by law and politics I hope you mean that we will treat everyone as though they were equal, not attempt to make them equal by government-enforced handicapping.

stereolambda 4y ago

Yeah, that's what I meant when I mentioned arguing the specifics. I agree that there are egalitarian extremisms that are pretty dystopic, though I think practice shows that only equality before law doesn't mean much by itself. If you ask me specifically, the extent is that everyone should have equal active participation in government and suffer no overwhelming pressure, physical, economic or otherwise from other people. Equality so that we can be free. This is more that we tend to have, but not necessarily in the "socialist" direction I think. To tie it back from an offtopic, this would make many AGI applications uneconomic, though likewise many enterprises are uneconomic if you have to pay your labor. Perhaps free societies, wherever they would be, would have the advantage of having free artificial minds acting in their actual self-interest, and not just serving their masters. You can see similar dynamic in late-18th century revolutionary wars.

thaeli 4y ago
Full AGI is likely uneconomic anyway. I think the sweet spot is going to be right below wherever we ultimately draw the "gets to have rights" line. There would still be good reasons to do AGI, and free artificial minds would be able to contribute greatly to society. But sufficient AI alignment to make existing systems comfortable with this is fundamentally counter to AI rights.

yucky 4y ago

That brings up a big point of contention in some circles, for instance see the recent change in wording in the official DNC party platform[1] from Racial Equality (treating people the same regardless of race) to Racial Equity (ensuring equal outcomes amongst races through government policy). [1] https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-Democratic-Party-Platform.pdf https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-Democr...

frozencell 4y ago
It's an interesting point you brought here. Would you like to have some async anon text chat about the Russia-Ukraine conflict and the geopolitical context and how it affects the tech world? (over Telegram/PGP for example). I cannot witness that level [1] of anti-curiosity from downvoters. [1] your comment on Azov - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31040694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31040694

spicymaki 4y ago

> not attempt to make them equal by government-enforced handicapping Are you against the ADA? The ADA forces companies to accommodate the disabled at a cost.

hobo_in_library 4y ago
When I read the parent comment, I imagined a panel saying: "Oh dear, Poor John there was born without a left leg. Alright, everyone else line up in front of the man with a meat cleaver"
- YarickR2 4y ago
  Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan, for slightly less injuring idea of handicapping everyone
- munk-a 4y ago
  It's not surprising, that's a pretty common caricature used to paint disability acts. The base root of what you're remembering is probably a short story by Kurt Vonnegut - "Harrison Bergeron"[1] which talks about an extremist approach to something beyond equality - sameness, everyone is forced to be the same. Equality and sameness are not the same, people can be treated equally and yet still allowed to retain their independence and diversity. 1. https://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html https://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
  - ehvatum 4y ago
    > Equality and sameness are not the same That’s a grossly capitalist exploitative viewpoint which overlooks hidden power structures to excuse any degree of inequality. Any difference whatsoever between anybody can be traced back to hidden power structures, and to deny this is fascism and morally equivalent to the January 6 toppling of our democracy and also slavery, which founded our nation in 1619. It’s time for a discussion of alternatives to the engine of inequality called capitalism. You see, when I buy something from you, we are both exploited in ways we know not, because they are hidden. The more you know…