6 ms·
> A few overheated transistors may not greatly affect reliability, but the heat generated from a few billion transistors does. This is particularly true for AI/
by Victerius 4y ago
> A few overheated transistors may not greatly affect reliability, but the heat generated from a few billion transistors does. This is particularly true for AI/ML/DL designs, where high utilization increases thermal dissipation, but thermal density affects every advanced node chip and package, which are used in smart phones, server chips, AR/VR, and a number of other high-performance devices. For all of them, DRAM placement and performance is now a top design consideration.
I know this may not be a cheap solution, but why not start selling pre-built computers with active cooling systems? Refrigerant liquids like those used in refrigerators or water cooling could be an option. The article addresses this:
> Although it sounds like a near-perfect solution in theory, and has been shown to work in labs, John Parry, industry lead, electronics and semiconductor at Siemens Digital Industries Software, noted that it’s unlikely to work in commercial production. “You’ve got everything from erosion by the fluid to issues with, of course, leaks because you’re dealing with extremely small, very fine physical geometry. And they are pumped. One of the features that we typically find has the lowest reliability associated with it are electromechanical devices like fans and pumps, so you end up with complexity in a number of different directions.”
So instead of integrating fluids within the computer, build powerful mini-freezers for computers and store the computer inside. Or split the warm transistors from the rest of the build and store only those inside the mini freezer, with cables to connect to the rest of the computer outside.
- jackmott42 4y agoActive cooling tends to have the challenge of controlling condensation, and then of course now you are drawing even MORE power from the wall.
- mrtranscendence 4y agoI've seen YouTube videos of overclockers employing refrigeration techniques (or coolants like liquid nitrogen), and it does seem like condensation is a major issue. Maybe that's not as much of a problem at more reasonable temperatures? But yeah, I'd be just as or more concerned about the amount of power it would take to run a freezer like that ... I'm already drawing as much as 850 watts for my PC, with a max of a couple hundred watts for my OLED TV and speakers, and don't forget the modem and router, and a lamp to top it all off; would a powerful enough mini freezer to cool my PC even fit on the circuit? Actually, it's even worse because I've got an air purifier running there too ... but I could move that, I suppose.
- Ekaros 4y agoCascade cooling is a fun thing. The next step after water cooling before getting to liquid nitrogen... Still, I wouldn't really go for that. Knowing how noisy the average compressor and fan for that size is. I much prefer my nearly silent fan cooled machine...
- EricE 4y agoIf you are going to go extreme enough to have a compressor and fan, you can always put them in another room :p
- SketchySeaBeast 4y agoSo you're taking a 300W-1000W space heater and putting it into a freezer that needs to be able to bleed that much heat? Going to need another breaker.
- Victerius 4y agoI'm just brainstorming. I can troubleshoot my computer and write basic code but I'm not a computer engineer.
- 7speter 4y agoThis has come up often in the comments section of articles I've seen about prospective 600-900w 40 series nvidia cards.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y agoHonestly, the fact that my 3080 can draw 400W makes me kind of sick and I limit FPS specifically so it doesn't. I can't ever see myself buying a card that draws double that.
- 7speter 4y agoUndervolt, friend. I'm running my 3060ti at ~100watts and the overclock is reaching 2150mhz. All while running at around 54 degrees (with a three fan cooler in an air conditioned room)
- max51 4y agoYou can reduce the power limit a lot on a 3080 before it impacts performance. The last 3 - 5% of performance they are getting out of their chip is responsible for more than a third of the power draw on higher clocked cards.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y agoYeah, I've significantly undervolted both my GPU and CPU. I now never see 300W, really helped with thermals as well.
- _jal 4y agoFor most commercial use, you're talking about refrigerated racks. They exist, but they're pretty niche. In a typical data center, all this does is decentralize your cooling. Now you have many smaller (typically less robust) motors to monitor and replace, and many drain lines much closer to customer equipment and power. Those units take up a lot more space, too, because of the insulation.
- QuarterReptile 4y agoThe elevated temperatures of the overheating components are such that fluid flow, not temperature difference, is the thing to go after, and it also has the advantage of being much simpler than adding a whole refrigeration cycle. These problems start to read like problems from nuclear power, where sufficiently uniform flow is a huge deal so that various materials aren't compromised in the reactor.
- beckingz 4y agoCondensation in most environments gets really rough on computers. In theory you can eliminate condensation. But in practice, there's a difference between theory and practice.
- tonetheman 4y agoi would hang the memory upside down so that condensation goes away from the electronics then put in a catch tray at the bottom for evaporation. I am sure there is a lot more to it than that though... ha
- beckingz 4y agoMore of an issue on the motherboards where it will eventually get into something.
- dclowd9901 4y agoHeat also moves upward so that would probably cause the board and its components to get too hot.
- dtx1 4y agowhy not integrate the ram into the package like apple does anyway and use a slightly larger SoC Cooling solution for the chips? Or just attach headspreaders to ram modules (like gaming modules) and add a fan for them like servers already do due to their general front to back airflow design. The only thing you can't do anymore is relying on the passive cooling of the chips own surface, something CPUs can't do anymore since the early 90s
- SketchySeaBeast 4y agoBig old SoC really do seem like the future. CPU, GPU, RAM, motherboard controllers, throw all those different problem onto a big old die and optimize for cooling that guy.
- foobiekr 4y agoSOCs are harder, not easier, to cool.
- AtlasBarfed 4y agoYeah I don't understand why a dedicated fan and other basic CPU cooling techniques don't apply here. It's probably because the DRAM industry doesn't want to change form factors and standards to a substantial degree... ... probably because they do the bare minimum to keep up with CPU design and routinely get busted for cartel price fixing and predatory pricing.
- dtx1 4y agoI mean literally this https://youtu.be/TFE9wfAfudE?t=611 https://youtu.be/TFE9wfAfudE?t=611 Problem solved
- toast0 4y agoApple does a ram on top system right? That's not going to be viable for servers ror two big reasons: a) it would big a major capacity limitation; you're not fitting 8-16 DIMMs worth of ram ontop of the CPU. Sure, not everyone fills up their servers, but many do. b) if you put the ram on top of the cpu, all of the cpu heat needs to transit the ram, which practically means you need a low heat cpu. This works for Apple, their laptop cooling design has never been appropriate for a high heat cpu, but servers manage to cool hundred watt chips in 1U through massive airflow, so high heat enables more computation. Heatspreaders may make their way into server ram though (although not so big, cause a lot of servers are 1U) Otoh, the article says > ‘From zero to 85°C, it operates one way, and at 85° to 90°C, it starts to change,'” noted Bill Gervasi, principal systems architect at Nantero and author of the JEDEC DDR5 NVRAM spec. “From 90° to 95°C, it starts to panic. Above 95°C, you’re going to start losing data, so you’d better start shutting the system down.” CPUs commonly operate in that temperature range, but RAM doesn't pull that much power, so it doesn't get too much above ambient as long as there's some airflow, and if ambient hits 50C, most people are going to shutdown their severs anyway.
- snarfy 4y agoThe biological solution to leaks is clotting. Do we have cooling liquids that clot like blood does, say when exposed to oxygen?
- chmod775 4y agoIt will clot inside the cooling circuit because of the air within it. Or will get within it. However there are ways to prevent and detect leaks in current system with negative pressure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiPec2epHfc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiPec2epHfc
- xxpor 4y agothe reliability there isn't particularly great ;)
- kansface 4y agoGreat, not your computer can have a thrombosis or a stroke!
- CoolGuySteve 4y agoI've always wondered why motherboards aren't placed at a slight angle like the wing of a car so that the air moving over it has a higher angle of incidence, higher pressure, and higher thermal capacity. With the angle, you can also place cable connectors and whatnot on the bottom of the board so they don't obstruct airflow as much. Basically, optimize PV = nRT inside the computer case at no extra cost other than a redesign.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y agoI would assume because the things with the greatest heat have typically had such a requirement for active cooling that minor optimization wouldn't have helped much and for everything else you really didn't worry about (though my motherboard now has heat-pipes across the VRMs and my RAM and northbridge have got big old heat spreaders).
- CoolGuySteve 4y agoYeah, the way my case is laid out, airflow to the VRM is blocked by the heat spreaders on the RAM and the ATX power connector. AMD systems in particular seem to require better memory thermals. It seems like we're reaching a point where a new ATX standard is required to ensure the memory and GPU can make contact with a large heatsink similar to how the trashcan Mac Pro and XBox Series X are designed. Doing so would also cut down on the ridiculous number of fans an overclocked gaming PC needs these days, my GPU and CPU heatsinks have 5 80mm fans mounted to them. ATX is great but it seems like only minor improvements to power connectors and whatnot have been made since it was introduced in 1995.
- Macha 4y agoAre the trashcan Mac Pro and Xbox Series X considered effecient cooling solutions? I thought the trashcan Pro had issues at higher temperatures which in turn limited their ability to use higher end parts and in turn forced the return of the cheese grater? The series X GPU then is considered equivalent to a desktop 3070, and laptop 3080s exist and are also considered equivalent to a desktop 3070, so don't require anything particularly novel in terms of cooling solutions (3080 laptops are loud under load, but so is the series X). Overclocked components are so heavy in cooling needs as they're being run so far outside their most efficient window to get the maximum performance - which is why datacenters which care more about energy usage than gamers tend to use lower clocked parts.
- kube-system 4y agoHeat pipes are the phase-change cooling solution that solves all of those issues. People don't really think of their cheap laptop as having a phase-change liquid cooling system, but it actually does.
- dangrossman 4y agoThe article mentions that the automotive industry demands some of the largest temperature ranges for these parts. New cars are basically computers on wheels (especially something like a Tesla), and the cabin in a hot day under a glass roof can easily exceed 170F. Where will the freezer you build around all the computers go, and how will it be powered while the car is sitting parked in a lot?
- outworlder 4y ago> I know this may not be a cheap solution, but why not start selling pre-built computers with active cooling systems? Refrigerant liquids like those used in refrigerators or water cooling could be an option. Before going into water cooling, a change in form factor to allow for better airflow (and mounting of larger heat sinks) would be in order. Water cooling would require a water cooling block, not sure how it would work with the current form factor. > So instead of integrating fluids within the computer, build powerful mini-freezers for computers and store the computer inside. Or split the warm transistors from the rest of the build and store only those inside the mini freezer, with cables to connect to the rest of the computer outside. That's impractical. You are heat exchanging with the air, then you are cooling down the air? Versus exhaust the hot air and bringing more from the outside. You just need to dissipate heat, active cooling is not needed.
- dtgriscom 4y agoSolutions that require increased complexity don't survive in the long run. I remember in the early '70s when my parents bought a new station wagon. This was right when the EPA was cracking down on emissions, and the manufacturers had to jump quick to compensate. Raise the hood on that thing, and you were greeted with a mass of hoses, pipes and components. Since then, lots and lots of work has gone into making clean engines simpler. Open the hood of a gas-powered car these days and you'll find relative simplicity.