5 ms·

> they're doing everything they can to hinder others by using overly complicated hardware and firmware designs and breaking things with macOS updates This is s

> they're doing everything they can to hinder others by using overly complicated hardware and firmware designs and breaking things with macOS updates This is such a shallow take. Your animosity toward Apple has blinkered you. There is zero possibility that anyone at Apple is spending any time working to make hardware designs "overly complicated" for the purpose of hindering efforts like Asahi Linux.

blinkingled 4y ago
Lol on animosity - now a days merely stating facts implies animosity. Also, another way to think about it is that there's zero possibility that anyone at Apple is spending any time working to make hardware designs that are friendly to alternative OSes. Those are both effectively the same things. Also since you might have take this personally - I wanted to clarify that my comment mostly is a reflection of wasted potential for the M* hardware - making it friendly to alt OSes would vastly improve the hardware's utility without hurting Apple. (If you are to believe most HNers they are a H/W company that is not interested in selling your personal data - so it should be in their financial interest if alt OSes sell more of their hardware.)
- quesera 4y ago
  > Those are both effectively the same things. They are not even close to the same thing. And if you were more familiar with the Asahi Linux project, you might remember that Apple has done a thing or two that made their work possible/future-proof.
  - blinkingled 4y ago
    They are the same thing. Unless Apple commits to documenting the hardware, designing with backwards compat(lol not gonna happen - but an example), or starts committing code to Asahi Linux - rest of it is all wishy washy - a variation of no guarantees anything will work or continue to work, you are on your own. It doesn't really matter otherwise if they are or are not spending time actively breaking things - as the article shows the net effect is the same.
    - quesera 4y ago
      They are not at all the same thing. Absence of beneficence is not evidence of malevolence. Apple is busy making their custom OS work on their custom chips. They will change either or both, as needed, to serve their needs. It's no minor thing to ask Apple to limit their own flexibility for a tiny non-revenue-generating external project. Remember Apple does not sell Mx chips on the open market like Intel/AMD/some ARM mfrs. They do not publish hardware specs as a service to customers, because they have no customers.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Absence of beneficence is not evidence of malevolence. Except it absolutely is evidence of malevolence. It's not conclusive evidence (i.e., irrefutable proof), but almost nothing has conclusive evidence.
        pmarreck 4y ago
        This is ridiculous reasoning (which is also being trounced by quesera), and you should just take the L at this point. Helping Asahi would tangentially benefit Apple (such as increasing mac sales... something that is reasonable to assume might happen a little bit, given how much more efficient the M chips are to Intel, and the fact that most Linux stuff already compiles just fine on it) while also possibly garnering some goodwill. It'd be great if they sold or licensed the chip to others so that it would have to be documented publicly, but we're not there yet.
        AshamedCaptain 4y ago
        The thing is, we're moving from CPUs that at least had their external behaviors and interfaces documented to CPUs which are _not_. Apple has already missed plenty of opportunities to generate goodwill or even minimal assurances of interoperability, and the argument that "at least it's not as locked down as the iPhone" (where this would be outright impossible instead of just ridiculously complicated) is hardly reassuring.
AshamedCaptain 4y ago
> There is zero possibility that anyone at Apple is spending any time [..] for the purpose of hindering efforts like Asahi Linux. Ah, that argument. Apple is, like Microsoft, actively trying to get people to run Linux and applications _under_ their OS -- Microsoft is shipping an entire Linux emulator for graphical applications and Apple is going to ship an x86 Linux emulator in a future release too. And then, both companies have a lot of incentive that you continue to run their operating system as your main OS -- they can show you ads that way, they can continue to sell your their subscriptions and services, their partners', etc. Combine the two, and I no longer believe the argument that "they couldn't care less about people who run Linux".
- quesera 4y ago
  Of course Apple wants macOS to be your preference. They sell hardware and services that depend on macOS. Things Apple does to make macOS more useful or appealing are in service of that goal. Absolutely. I have not heard, and cannot find, any rumors about Apple shipping a Linux emulator. Links? Regardless, I would not argue that Apple doesn't care about Linux. I would argue that Apple does not overcomplicate their hardware engineering with the goal of preventing people from running Linux on their hardware. And that is what I said. macOS drives hardware sales. Apple makes money on hardware sales. They will not compromise their ability to change hardware or software to support a tiny noncommercial project, of course! But at the end of the day, thinking as commercially as I can: Apple would prefer that you buy a M1 Mac and run Asahi, than buy a Dell running Windows or Linux instead. They have no opportunity to sell you macOS services in either case, but if you buy the M1, they capture hardware sales revenue.
  - AshamedCaptain 4y ago
    > I have not heard, and cannot find, any rumors about Apple shipping a Linux emulator. Links? It was even on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31644990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31644990 , https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/06/macos-ventura-will-extend-rosetta-support-to-linux-virtual-machines/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/06/macos-ventura-will-e... > macOS drives hardware sales. Apple makes money on hardware sales. Not as clear specially when the money they make from macOS hardware sales is actually less than what they make from services or iOS hardware sales. The era when we had an open computing standards Apple that tried to interoperate with others is long gone. This is the era of the captive Apple who is trying to bind you into their ecosystem, and I won't believe the "0%" argument any more than I believe it for MS.

blinkingled 4y ago

Lol on animosity - now a days merely stating facts implies animosity. Also, another way to think about it is that there's zero possibility that anyone at Apple is spending any time working to make hardware designs that are friendly to alternative OSes. Those are both effectively the same things. Also since you might have take this personally - I wanted to clarify that my comment mostly is a reflection of wasted potential for the M* hardware - making it friendly to alt OSes would vastly improve the hardware's utility without hurting Apple. (If you are to believe most HNers they are a H/W company that is not interested in selling your personal data - so it should be in their financial interest if alt OSes sell more of their hardware.)

quesera 4y ago
> Those are both effectively the same things. They are not even close to the same thing. And if you were more familiar with the Asahi Linux project, you might remember that Apple has done a thing or two that made their work possible/future-proof.
- blinkingled 4y ago
  They are the same thing. Unless Apple commits to documenting the hardware, designing with backwards compat(lol not gonna happen - but an example), or starts committing code to Asahi Linux - rest of it is all wishy washy - a variation of no guarantees anything will work or continue to work, you are on your own. It doesn't really matter otherwise if they are or are not spending time actively breaking things - as the article shows the net effect is the same.
  - quesera 4y ago
    They are not at all the same thing. Absence of beneficence is not evidence of malevolence. Apple is busy making their custom OS work on their custom chips. They will change either or both, as needed, to serve their needs. It's no minor thing to ask Apple to limit their own flexibility for a tiny non-revenue-generating external project. Remember Apple does not sell Mx chips on the open market like Intel/AMD/some ARM mfrs. They do not publish hardware specs as a service to customers, because they have no customers.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Absence of beneficence is not evidence of malevolence. Except it absolutely is evidence of malevolence. It's not conclusive evidence (i.e., irrefutable proof), but almost nothing has conclusive evidence.
      - pmarreck 4y ago
        This is ridiculous reasoning (which is also being trounced by quesera), and you should just take the L at this point. Helping Asahi would tangentially benefit Apple (such as increasing mac sales... something that is reasonable to assume might happen a little bit, given how much more efficient the M chips are to Intel, and the fact that most Linux stuff already compiles just fine on it) while also possibly garnering some goodwill. It'd be great if they sold or licensed the chip to others so that it would have to be documented publicly, but we're not there yet.
        AshamedCaptain 4y ago
        The thing is, we're moving from CPUs that at least had their external behaviors and interfaces documented to CPUs which are _not_. Apple has already missed plenty of opportunities to generate goodwill or even minimal assurances of interoperability, and the argument that "at least it's not as locked down as the iPhone" (where this would be outright impossible instead of just ridiculously complicated) is hardly reassuring.

AshamedCaptain 4y ago

> There is zero possibility that anyone at Apple is spending any time [..] for the purpose of hindering efforts like Asahi Linux. Ah, that argument. Apple is, like Microsoft, actively trying to get people to run Linux and applications _under_ their OS -- Microsoft is shipping an entire Linux emulator for graphical applications and Apple is going to ship an x86 Linux emulator in a future release too. And then, both companies have a lot of incentive that you continue to run their operating system as your main OS -- they can show you ads that way, they can continue to sell your their subscriptions and services, their partners', etc. Combine the two, and I no longer believe the argument that "they couldn't care less about people who run Linux".

quesera 4y ago
Of course Apple wants macOS to be your preference. They sell hardware and services that depend on macOS. Things Apple does to make macOS more useful or appealing are in service of that goal. Absolutely. I have not heard, and cannot find, any rumors about Apple shipping a Linux emulator. Links? Regardless, I would not argue that Apple doesn't care about Linux. I would argue that Apple does not overcomplicate their hardware engineering with the goal of preventing people from running Linux on their hardware. And that is what I said. macOS drives hardware sales. Apple makes money on hardware sales. They will not compromise their ability to change hardware or software to support a tiny noncommercial project, of course! But at the end of the day, thinking as commercially as I can: Apple would prefer that you buy a M1 Mac and run Asahi, than buy a Dell running Windows or Linux instead. They have no opportunity to sell you macOS services in either case, but if you buy the M1, they capture hardware sales revenue.
- AshamedCaptain 4y ago
  > I have not heard, and cannot find, any rumors about Apple shipping a Linux emulator. Links? It was even on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31644990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31644990 , https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/06/macos-ventura-will-extend-rosetta-support-to-linux-virtual-machines/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/06/macos-ventura-will-e... > macOS drives hardware sales. Apple makes money on hardware sales. Not as clear specially when the money they make from macOS hardware sales is actually less than what they make from services or iOS hardware sales. The era when we had an open computing standards Apple that tried to interoperate with others is long gone. This is the era of the captive Apple who is trying to bind you into their ecosystem, and I won't believe the "0%" argument any more than I believe it for MS.