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All those platforms sound nice when you are on the receiving end of things and not the one delivering. I used to go to a local McDonald's in London once in a wh

All those platforms sound nice when you are on the receiving end of things and not the one delivering. I used to go to a local McDonald's in London once in a while and when you see 15 Deliveroo guys queuing up with helmets, completely exhausted and miserable, then you realise the cost of that burger being delivered whilst you sit on a sofa. Or Amazon prime delivery, where the guy has to do so many drop offs that he literally runs from the van to your apartment...

jeffwask 4y ago
This is the big issue. All of these "businesses" ignore the human cost and just assume an exploitable population begging to not lose their housing. This is a problem that exists all the way through the product lifecycle with these services and leads to GrubHub offering free lunches in NYC but not telling any restaurants so an already stretched to breaking industry gets slammed with no warning. All these companies are designed around an exit not a viable business.
rootusrootus 4y ago
This sounds like a moral concern? Lazy people who want a burger should be required to walk down and get it themselves? I mean, it's not like this is some kind of new thing, where people with money choose to pay other people to do some unpleasant bit of work they themselves don't want to do.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
That job is arguably nicer than e.g. flipping the burgers or cleaning the kitchen at that McDonald's. The service industry has a lot of hidden jobs performed by hard working people that just aren't very glamorous. We're in a market with very low unemployment rate: people can choose what they do within some reason. Lots of people are choosing to take gigs like this rather than work as a dishwasher, or waiting tables. IMHO that's basically people voting with their feet. Of course things in the US are a bit worse than in Europe. People have to work multiple jobs there just to pay the rent. That shitty job at McDonald's is not enough. So you have fully employed people that do that that find it necessary to take some gigs on top of that because their regular job just isn't paying enough. That's not the gig economy that caused that; something else was broken there long before that became a thing. Like the lack of a minimum wage, the erosion of the middle class, etc. Things looked pretty grim the last time I visited San Francisco. Abject poverty right next to extreme wealth. Whatever caused that, it's not Uber or delivery companies. Here in Berlin, Uber drivers are just normal taxi drivers. There are a lot of people on bikes delivering stuff and they seem to be OK with that. Seems popular with mostly younger people. And of course Amazon Prime and other deliveries are a huge thing here as well. The gig economy is definitely putting some pressure on the social insurance system and some countries are better than others at forcing these companies to treat their people fairly. Unions certainly don't like it that there people earning money outside of sectors they control. But overall, I think it's a system that could work longer term and not just a fad. We just need to figure out how to get these people insured against the inevitabilities in life: sickness, retirement, and unemployment.
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
Or living next door to a dark store. Because everything has to be delivered in 20 minutes they are putting them in residential areas.
- Freak_NL 4y ago
  Regulators are fighting back though, which some of these companies also note as a reason for getting out of the market. In the Netherlands Amsterdam is banishing dark stores from residential zones, one or two of these locusts specifically mentioned that development upon suspending their efforts.
suprfnk 4y ago
This is not a fast-delivery problem though, this is a governmental/cultural problem. If we could have fast delivery with rested, happy workers, then I see no problem with the fast delivery itself. The question is, why are people doing these jobs if they are exhausted and miserable? Is the pay good? Are the (flexible?) working hours better than elsewhere? Why is it preferable to other jobs?
- mibzman 4y ago
  it's because if they don't have a (second) job they won't be able to afford to eat. or be housed.
rossvor 4y ago
Just to push back against this view a bit with one anecdote -- I'm still in contact with an ex-colleague of mine, who I used to work with in retail. He now works for various delivery apps. And according to him it's vastly superior to any retail job he worked previously and whenever I mention any of the negative press these apps receive and query for his opinion he usually just rolls his eyes. He gets to control when and how long he works, he gets to ride his bike (which he loves) and pay is much better than any retail job he would get in london (and he would be looking at retail manager considering his experience). So in that picture of local McDonald's in London, consider that perhaps those guys are actually much happier than everyone else working in that store (including the McDonald's managers). Obviously that's just an anecdote of one person, I don't actually have a strong opinion on this.
- asah 4y ago
  ...until the day he gets injured, bike stolen, etc etc etc - and these jobs are also unsustainable because they're not saving enough for retirement, i.e. when your body is no longer able to compete with younger bodies.
  - Invictus0 4y ago
    Serious question, have you ever been poor in your life or worked a retail job?
    - asah 4y ago
      Yes, many, I have stories. Inspired me to take school seriously. But this isn't about me. Obviously, people working retail jobs have limited options to make money. But that's also not the point. The point is that gig work sounds good until you need worker's comp.
- cosmodisk 4y ago
  I absolutely believe what your ex colleague says/thinks of his job is exactly what he means, however he's comparing it with a retail job,which,in most cases are pretty crap. I also understand that even if the job may look crap, it can still be a huge improvement for the person who's doing the job. I've done enough crappy and good jobs in my life to know the difference, but I appreciate not everyone would have such a perspective.

jeffwask 4y ago

This is the big issue. All of these "businesses" ignore the human cost and just assume an exploitable population begging to not lose their housing. This is a problem that exists all the way through the product lifecycle with these services and leads to GrubHub offering free lunches in NYC but not telling any restaurants so an already stretched to breaking industry gets slammed with no warning. All these companies are designed around an exit not a viable business.

rootusrootus 4y ago

This sounds like a moral concern? Lazy people who want a burger should be required to walk down and get it themselves? I mean, it's not like this is some kind of new thing, where people with money choose to pay other people to do some unpleasant bit of work they themselves don't want to do.

jillesvangurp 4y ago

That job is arguably nicer than e.g. flipping the burgers or cleaning the kitchen at that McDonald's. The service industry has a lot of hidden jobs performed by hard working people that just aren't very glamorous. We're in a market with very low unemployment rate: people can choose what they do within some reason. Lots of people are choosing to take gigs like this rather than work as a dishwasher, or waiting tables. IMHO that's basically people voting with their feet. Of course things in the US are a bit worse than in Europe. People have to work multiple jobs there just to pay the rent. That shitty job at McDonald's is not enough. So you have fully employed people that do that that find it necessary to take some gigs on top of that because their regular job just isn't paying enough. That's not the gig economy that caused that; something else was broken there long before that became a thing. Like the lack of a minimum wage, the erosion of the middle class, etc. Things looked pretty grim the last time I visited San Francisco. Abject poverty right next to extreme wealth. Whatever caused that, it's not Uber or delivery companies. Here in Berlin, Uber drivers are just normal taxi drivers. There are a lot of people on bikes delivering stuff and they seem to be OK with that. Seems popular with mostly younger people. And of course Amazon Prime and other deliveries are a huge thing here as well. The gig economy is definitely putting some pressure on the social insurance system and some countries are better than others at forcing these companies to treat their people fairly. Unions certainly don't like it that there people earning money outside of sectors they control. But overall, I think it's a system that could work longer term and not just a fad. We just need to figure out how to get these people insured against the inevitabilities in life: sickness, retirement, and unemployment.

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

Or living next door to a dark store. Because everything has to be delivered in 20 minutes they are putting them in residential areas.

Freak_NL 4y ago
Regulators are fighting back though, which some of these companies also note as a reason for getting out of the market. In the Netherlands Amsterdam is banishing dark stores from residential zones, one or two of these locusts specifically mentioned that development upon suspending their efforts.

suprfnk 4y ago

This is not a fast-delivery problem though, this is a governmental/cultural problem. If we could have fast delivery with rested, happy workers, then I see no problem with the fast delivery itself. The question is, why are people doing these jobs if they are exhausted and miserable? Is the pay good? Are the (flexible?) working hours better than elsewhere? Why is it preferable to other jobs?

mibzman 4y ago
it's because if they don't have a (second) job they won't be able to afford to eat. or be housed.

rossvor 4y ago

Just to push back against this view a bit with one anecdote -- I'm still in contact with an ex-colleague of mine, who I used to work with in retail. He now works for various delivery apps. And according to him it's vastly superior to any retail job he worked previously and whenever I mention any of the negative press these apps receive and query for his opinion he usually just rolls his eyes. He gets to control when and how long he works, he gets to ride his bike (which he loves) and pay is much better than any retail job he would get in london (and he would be looking at retail manager considering his experience). So in that picture of local McDonald's in London, consider that perhaps those guys are actually much happier than everyone else working in that store (including the McDonald's managers). Obviously that's just an anecdote of one person, I don't actually have a strong opinion on this.

asah 4y ago
...until the day he gets injured, bike stolen, etc etc etc - and these jobs are also unsustainable because they're not saving enough for retirement, i.e. when your body is no longer able to compete with younger bodies.
- Invictus0 4y ago
  Serious question, have you ever been poor in your life or worked a retail job?
  - asah 4y ago
    Yes, many, I have stories. Inspired me to take school seriously. But this isn't about me. Obviously, people working retail jobs have limited options to make money. But that's also not the point. The point is that gig work sounds good until you need worker's comp.
cosmodisk 4y ago
I absolutely believe what your ex colleague says/thinks of his job is exactly what he means, however he's comparing it with a retail job,which,in most cases are pretty crap. I also understand that even if the job may look crap, it can still be a huge improvement for the person who's doing the job. I've done enough crappy and good jobs in my life to know the difference, but I appreciate not everyone would have such a perspective.