6 ms·

> ... just collectively calming the hell down for a few hours when it's cloudy. This is the exact argument people opposed to wind and solar make.

Schroedingersat 4y ago
That's because they treat our habits and systems of organisation as immutable constants and the laws of physics as guidelines.
- thinkcontext 4y ago
  You'll have to define what you mean by "... collectively calming the hell down when its cloudy". To me this implies pretty drastic demand response behavior changes but perhaps that's not what you mean.
goodpoint 4y ago
...and it's a very poor argument. 1) Energy can be transported and "averaged out" across very large areas, making local clouds or low winds irrelevant 2) Energy can be stored not only in reversible form, but also in form of stored heat to be released later on for building or water heating 3) There is no reason to believe that demand must always be satisfied fully. A lot of countries already have day/night tariffs since decades and making appliances smarter is not difficult at all. A lot of industrial uses can be made flexible.
- thinkcontext 4y ago
  "... just collectively calming the hell down for a few hours when it's cloudy" sounds like it is quite different than existing demand response. To me it sounds like residential users included should curtail energy using activities in response to cloudy or non-windy times, which will be extremely unpopular. Incidentally, I am signed up for a demand response program with my utility. During summer they pay me for the ability to curtail my AC during times of grid stress.
- zbrozek 4y ago
  I'm no longer convinced of the transportability of electrical power. At least here in America, NIMBY politics makes it nigh impossible to build new transmission. And here in California our regulators have created an environment where we pay excessively high energy prices, have poor uptime, and regularly set ourselves alight. For any kilowatt hour I pull off the grid I pay at least thrice the national average, and in this month I'll have uninterrupted power 87% of days with 28 hours of total downtime. The future is distributed microgrids even if it isn't the theoretically optimal future.
  - KptMarchewa 4y ago
    As always in recent past, USA can't even think of going outside of it's local maximum.
  - ethagknight 4y ago
    California is not a good example to use as an example of American energy capability, just Californian energy
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    That's an US problem: some grid operator are also owners of power plants. Of course they don't want to make the grid friendly towards distributed solar power generation and microgrids because it would eat away from profits from their power plants. And they are allowed to lobby politicians yadda yadda... This is a political problem, not technological. And should be solved at a political level. > The future is distributed microgrids even if it isn't the theoretically optimal future. Distributed microgrids does not imply that they are not connected to each other, but you are right: democratizing energy production is much more important than nitpicking at efficiency.
    - zbrozek 4y ago
      I didn't claim those microgrids wouldn't interconnect to the larger grid. ;) Low reliability and high per-unit-energy costs are driving me to be self-sufficient but to maintain my grid connection to reduce likelihood of correlated failure. I suspect the regulators will dramatically drive up grid connection fees at some point in the future. When we get there, I'll simply disconnect entirely and get my backup from gasoline.
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  >A lot of industrial uses can be made flexible. ...which will move to country with stable power after looking at cost of making this happen.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    The reason people have been doing this for decades is because it is cheaper for some industries (plus some consumer applications). And when those industries do it, it makes power both cheaper and more stable for everyone else. A win-win.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    ...so that they can avoid paying lower energy rates during the night?
    - KptMarchewa 4y ago
      So that they can have stable processes without tons of capital investment required to do something flexibly.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

That's because they treat our habits and systems of organisation as immutable constants and the laws of physics as guidelines.

thinkcontext 4y ago
You'll have to define what you mean by "... collectively calming the hell down when its cloudy". To me this implies pretty drastic demand response behavior changes but perhaps that's not what you mean.

goodpoint 4y ago

...and it's a very poor argument. 1) Energy can be transported and "averaged out" across very large areas, making local clouds or low winds irrelevant 2) Energy can be stored not only in reversible form, but also in form of stored heat to be released later on for building or water heating 3) There is no reason to believe that demand must always be satisfied fully. A lot of countries already have day/night tariffs since decades and making appliances smarter is not difficult at all. A lot of industrial uses can be made flexible.

thinkcontext 4y ago
"... just collectively calming the hell down for a few hours when it's cloudy" sounds like it is quite different than existing demand response. To me it sounds like residential users included should curtail energy using activities in response to cloudy or non-windy times, which will be extremely unpopular. Incidentally, I am signed up for a demand response program with my utility. During summer they pay me for the ability to curtail my AC during times of grid stress.
zbrozek 4y ago
I'm no longer convinced of the transportability of electrical power. At least here in America, NIMBY politics makes it nigh impossible to build new transmission. And here in California our regulators have created an environment where we pay excessively high energy prices, have poor uptime, and regularly set ourselves alight. For any kilowatt hour I pull off the grid I pay at least thrice the national average, and in this month I'll have uninterrupted power 87% of days with 28 hours of total downtime. The future is distributed microgrids even if it isn't the theoretically optimal future.
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  As always in recent past, USA can't even think of going outside of it's local maximum.
- ethagknight 4y ago
  California is not a good example to use as an example of American energy capability, just Californian energy
- goodpoint 4y ago
  That's an US problem: some grid operator are also owners of power plants. Of course they don't want to make the grid friendly towards distributed solar power generation and microgrids because it would eat away from profits from their power plants. And they are allowed to lobby politicians yadda yadda... This is a political problem, not technological. And should be solved at a political level. > The future is distributed microgrids even if it isn't the theoretically optimal future. Distributed microgrids does not imply that they are not connected to each other, but you are right: democratizing energy production is much more important than nitpicking at efficiency.
  - zbrozek 4y ago
    I didn't claim those microgrids wouldn't interconnect to the larger grid. ;) Low reliability and high per-unit-energy costs are driving me to be self-sufficient but to maintain my grid connection to reduce likelihood of correlated failure. I suspect the regulators will dramatically drive up grid connection fees at some point in the future. When we get there, I'll simply disconnect entirely and get my backup from gasoline.
KptMarchewa 4y ago
>A lot of industrial uses can be made flexible. ...which will move to country with stable power after looking at cost of making this happen.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  The reason people have been doing this for decades is because it is cheaper for some industries (plus some consumer applications). And when those industries do it, it makes power both cheaper and more stable for everyone else. A win-win.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  ...so that they can avoid paying lower energy rates during the night?
  - KptMarchewa 4y ago
    So that they can have stable processes without tons of capital investment required to do something flexibly.