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Why does it matter if the janitor makes more money when they are likely still struggling just as much due to high cost of living? The whole "humanity is way mo

Why does it matter if the janitor makes more money when they are likely still struggling just as much due to high cost of living? The whole "humanity is way more wealthy than in the 1600s because consumerism is at an all time high" thing doesn't make sense after basic inspection of the idea. In the year 2150 there will be impoverished single mothers who are working three jobs to pay off the loans for their spaceship. Just because they have a personal spaceship and they get to do hard labor in the laser mines doesn't mean they aren't permanently trapped at the very bottom of a rigid and oppressive class structure.

csallen 4y ago
You're analyzing everything in relative terms, which makes it seem like being at the bottom of the totem pole is an equivalent experience in any society or time period, because the bottom is the bottom. This isn't true. From a high level, self-reported happiness has an extremely strong correlation with a country's GDP. On a personal level, the average impoverished person in a developing country like South Africa has a much worse lived experience than the average impoverished person in America. You would be hard pressed to find a San Francisco janitor who wants to switch places with a Capetonian one, or a 2150 single mother who wants to switch places with an 1850 single mother. It's not just consumerism that's at an all time high. It's wealth. It's technology. It's ease of life. It's leisure time. It's healthcare. It's the ability to communicate with others. These things don't just come out of nowhere. They're created (by capitalistic markets) because people like them and they improve their lives.
- creatonez 4y ago
  That progress has nothing to do with capitalism. Almost any economy can create technology. Even the soviet union's ridiculous bureaucracy was able to bring rapid world-changing technological progress to some of the most under-developed siberian wilderness. Describing it in what you call "relative terms" describes the unjust exploitation, the shackles that chain people while pretending to free them. The shackles that prevent all this progress from actually allowing people to work less (examine this: did "leisure time" actually continue to increase after the industrial revolution took us out of farming? or did it level off everywhere except for outliers like germany and france?)
  - csallen 4y ago
    To say that capitalism has nothing to do with progress is bewildering to me. Sure. Even dictatorships have created technology before. But that doesn't mean that capitalistic markets don't create technology at a rapid pace. They certainly do. Also, the Soviet Union was also chock full of starving people, and had trouble keeping grocery store shelves stocked and determining how many screws to send to factories, because they weren't allowing markets to determine prices based on supply and demand, and instead tried to control that from the top down It's not efficient and it doesn't last. Where is the Soviet Union now? And there's more to progress than just working less. I'd rather work 40 hours/week at an air conditioned desk doing knowledge work than 40 hours inhaling coal or working in a dangerous factory. And I like that I don't have to spend 20 hours a week cleaning, washing, repairing, etc., due to a lack of efficient tools and technology and industries to help with that kind of stuff. If there hasn't been meaningful progress, then exactly what era would you like to go back to and live in?

csallen 4y ago

You're analyzing everything in relative terms, which makes it seem like being at the bottom of the totem pole is an equivalent experience in any society or time period, because the bottom is the bottom. This isn't true. From a high level, self-reported happiness has an extremely strong correlation with a country's GDP. On a personal level, the average impoverished person in a developing country like South Africa has a much worse lived experience than the average impoverished person in America. You would be hard pressed to find a San Francisco janitor who wants to switch places with a Capetonian one, or a 2150 single mother who wants to switch places with an 1850 single mother. It's not just consumerism that's at an all time high. It's wealth. It's technology. It's ease of life. It's leisure time. It's healthcare. It's the ability to communicate with others. These things don't just come out of nowhere. They're created (by capitalistic markets) because people like them and they improve their lives.

creatonez 4y ago
That progress has nothing to do with capitalism. Almost any economy can create technology. Even the soviet union's ridiculous bureaucracy was able to bring rapid world-changing technological progress to some of the most under-developed siberian wilderness. Describing it in what you call "relative terms" describes the unjust exploitation, the shackles that chain people while pretending to free them. The shackles that prevent all this progress from actually allowing people to work less (examine this: did "leisure time" actually continue to increase after the industrial revolution took us out of farming? or did it level off everywhere except for outliers like germany and france?)
- csallen 4y ago
  To say that capitalism has nothing to do with progress is bewildering to me. Sure. Even dictatorships have created technology before. But that doesn't mean that capitalistic markets don't create technology at a rapid pace. They certainly do. Also, the Soviet Union was also chock full of starving people, and had trouble keeping grocery store shelves stocked and determining how many screws to send to factories, because they weren't allowing markets to determine prices based on supply and demand, and instead tried to control that from the top down It's not efficient and it doesn't last. Where is the Soviet Union now? And there's more to progress than just working less. I'd rather work 40 hours/week at an air conditioned desk doing knowledge work than 40 hours inhaling coal or working in a dangerous factory. And I like that I don't have to spend 20 hours a week cleaning, washing, repairing, etc., due to a lack of efficient tools and technology and industries to help with that kind of stuff. If there hasn't been meaningful progress, then exactly what era would you like to go back to and live in?