4 ms·

I'm curious how much of this was a reaction to the overtly obvious "Russian Collusion" conspiracy theory. If Trump had been left to fail on his own without the

by yucky 4y ago

I'm curious how much of this was a reaction to the overtly obvious "Russian Collusion" conspiracy theory. If Trump had been left to fail on his own without the interference by intelligence agencies I suspect he would have far fewer ardent supporters.

michaelmrose 4y ago
This is a bad theory. The Russian collusion angle has to do with the fact that a literal Russian spy met with the Trump campaign, then Trump opined on TV that maybe the Russians could "find" Hillary's emails, then Russia which had a distinct horse in that race then made at least attempts to interfere in the election by hacking and by promulgating dinsinfo on social media in part with the help of data harvested by a Republican think tank. This perception of corruption was furthered when he made positive statements regarding Russia and Putin including telling the world he believed Putin's statement over the word of our intelligence apparatus and deepened when he was caught withholding aid from the Ukrainians whom had been initially invaded lest we forget in 2014 not 2022. None of the above is even slightly controversial. What is lacking is specific proof that there was any quid pro quo between Trump and Russia without which is closer to a denial by Al Capone that he knew or had ordered specific hits than a legitimate protestation of innocence. At best He and Putin had interests that aligned with minimal coordination needed and he stood to gain by the illegal actions of a foreign power he had aligned himself with. Furthermore although the Russia angle was a source of division and much interest on both sides of the aisle it has little to do with support for Trump. Trump is and was a charismatic figure to middle to lower class white America because he told them accurately that they had been left behind in a playing field dominated by the rich and powerful who had long been tilting the game board so that most of the wealth created in large part by hard working Americans ended up in their pockets. He just managed to put most of the blame on the left and brown people and forgot to mention he was one of the rich elites screwing the little guy and intended to deepen and broaden the corruption that allowed them to keep doing this. Compared to this Russia was a side show.
- yucky 4y ago
  >the Ukrainians whom had been initially invaded lest we forget in 2014 not 2022 Yes, do you remember why they were invaded? The US fomented and funded the 2014 coup, which immediately triggered the invasion - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957. This was orchestrated by US intelligence. So of course US intelligence wasn't very fond of anybody disrupting their play in Ukraine. No surprise then that they went after Trump as hard as they did for as long as they did, until he was gone. Trump is more of a broken clock than a foreign policy genius, but on this one (and on the dangers of offshoring too much to China) he was right. We were neck deep in shenanigans in Ukraine for a long time, and he came in and fucked the game up for 4 years. Once he was gone, the game was restarted and here we are. Delayed, but back on the playbook. Also, thinking it was a bad idea to install a puppet government in Ukraine (and not wanting to continue playing along) isn't "Russian collusion" either. All of our fuckery in Ukraine is why we're staring down the barrel of WWIII and a very, very cold winter too. So on this one, Trump was right.
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    We didn't install a puppet government in Ukraine. Russia tried to install a puppet government in Ukraine that the Ukrainians in turn rejected not least of which after the man who would be puppet met protests with violence. Then he fled back to his masters in Moscow. Nothing "triggered" the invasion of Ukraine but Putin's greed. He himself said in an essay that it necessary to steal Ukraine sooner rather than later not to preserve the security of Russia which is rendered inviolable not by buffer states but by 1200 nukes but because it would be impossible to steal it later without fighting NATO. Assigning blame to the US is like blaming a wife's talkative friend for the beating her abuser handed out because he feared rightly that her "vacation" was really her fleeing his clutches. It's deeply offensive. A stopped clock may be right twice a day but Trump was not. His sol meaningful action in that area was an attempt to sell Ukraine on a politically manipulative investigation of his domestic rival in exchange for the supplies already authorized by congress. He did nothing. He did however repeatedly according to his own people repeatedly express the desire to torpedo NATO which would have served to embolden Russia. We can probably credit both his handlers and the voters who rejected his second term for him not having a worse effect.

by yucky 4y ago

michaelmrose 4y ago

This is a bad theory. The Russian collusion angle has to do with the fact that a literal Russian spy met with the Trump campaign, then Trump opined on TV that maybe the Russians could "find" Hillary's emails, then Russia which had a distinct horse in that race then made at least attempts to interfere in the election by hacking and by promulgating dinsinfo on social media in part with the help of data harvested by a Republican think tank. This perception of corruption was furthered when he made positive statements regarding Russia and Putin including telling the world he believed Putin's statement over the word of our intelligence apparatus and deepened when he was caught withholding aid from the Ukrainians whom had been initially invaded lest we forget in 2014 not 2022. None of the above is even slightly controversial. What is lacking is specific proof that there was any quid pro quo between Trump and Russia without which is closer to a denial by Al Capone that he knew or had ordered specific hits than a legitimate protestation of innocence. At best He and Putin had interests that aligned with minimal coordination needed and he stood to gain by the illegal actions of a foreign power he had aligned himself with. Furthermore although the Russia angle was a source of division and much interest on both sides of the aisle it has little to do with support for Trump. Trump is and was a charismatic figure to middle to lower class white America because he told them accurately that they had been left behind in a playing field dominated by the rich and powerful who had long been tilting the game board so that most of the wealth created in large part by hard working Americans ended up in their pockets. He just managed to put most of the blame on the left and brown people and forgot to mention he was one of the rich elites screwing the little guy and intended to deepen and broaden the corruption that allowed them to keep doing this. Compared to this Russia was a side show.

yucky 4y ago
>the Ukrainians whom had been initially invaded lest we forget in 2014 not 2022 Yes, do you remember why they were invaded? The US fomented and funded the 2014 coup, which immediately triggered the invasion - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957. This was orchestrated by US intelligence. So of course US intelligence wasn't very fond of anybody disrupting their play in Ukraine. No surprise then that they went after Trump as hard as they did for as long as they did, until he was gone. Trump is more of a broken clock than a foreign policy genius, but on this one (and on the dangers of offshoring too much to China) he was right. We were neck deep in shenanigans in Ukraine for a long time, and he came in and fucked the game up for 4 years. Once he was gone, the game was restarted and here we are. Delayed, but back on the playbook. Also, thinking it was a bad idea to install a puppet government in Ukraine (and not wanting to continue playing along) isn't "Russian collusion" either. All of our fuckery in Ukraine is why we're staring down the barrel of WWIII and a very, very cold winter too. So on this one, Trump was right.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  We didn't install a puppet government in Ukraine. Russia tried to install a puppet government in Ukraine that the Ukrainians in turn rejected not least of which after the man who would be puppet met protests with violence. Then he fled back to his masters in Moscow. Nothing "triggered" the invasion of Ukraine but Putin's greed. He himself said in an essay that it necessary to steal Ukraine sooner rather than later not to preserve the security of Russia which is rendered inviolable not by buffer states but by 1200 nukes but because it would be impossible to steal it later without fighting NATO. Assigning blame to the US is like blaming a wife's talkative friend for the beating her abuser handed out because he feared rightly that her "vacation" was really her fleeing his clutches. It's deeply offensive. A stopped clock may be right twice a day but Trump was not. His sol meaningful action in that area was an attempt to sell Ukraine on a politically manipulative investigation of his domestic rival in exchange for the supplies already authorized by congress. He did nothing. He did however repeatedly according to his own people repeatedly express the desire to torpedo NATO which would have served to embolden Russia. We can probably credit both his handlers and the voters who rejected his second term for him not having a worse effect.