12 ms·

Sitting and standing at work (2015)

151 points by yamrzou 4y ago

specialist 4y ago
Made my first standing desk ~1998. Just a used door and 2x4s. I've always just used barstools. You also need a rubber mat. Especially if the floor is concrete. Or really good shoes or work boots. I lost about 30lbs. After about 3 months, I was able to stand for any length of time, without discomfort. The social benefits were great too. Quick meetings, huddles, mood checks. Or my team would pull up barstools and use my desk as a shared workspace as needed. Probably the outcome those agile proponents were shooting for with their "standup meetings" stuff. Eventually, about 1/2 my team also got standing desks. Then other teams joined the movement. Adjustable desks seem like overkill to me. And per this article, the novelty quickly wears off. Use the money to buy more, better monitors instead.
vavooom 4y ago
“The bottom line: Sit to do computer work. Sit using a height-adjustable, downward titling keyboard tray for the best work posture, then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes. “ Pretty sensible that movement is key to solution. Long on-camera remote meetings always bug me and I tend to take a few minutes to walk around or pace if I can go camera off.
ozim 4y ago
So standing desks are snake oil of our times.
- 62951413 4y ago
  A dozen years ago when people started using them I thought those were rather odd fellows. Fast forward to the point where after 20+ years of coding lower back pain is quite common unless I work at a standing desk a lot.
- beebmam 4y ago
  But sit-stand desks are not.
- InvaderFizz 4y ago
  They do wonders for me. Any chair I sit in mostly upright for more than a few minutes will start to cause me pain in my lower back. (Herniated L4-L5) Alternatively, a standing desk where I have tons of movement and am constantly moving my feet and legs, I can stand at all day long. I'm sure it's distracting when I'm on camera, I'm constantly swaying from side to side.
- bgribble 4y ago
  I've been a full-time developer since about 1993. I switched to 100% standing at work in 2014 sort of on a whim. Before that, I had a significant episode of back pain (enough to leave me unable to function normally) about once a year. Since then, never once. I'm sure it's complicated and I know correlation is not causality. But my personal belief is that standing is a huge benefit for my back's health as a programmer.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Less the snake oil of our times than a trendy fad from 10 years ago that managed to accumulate a few fanatics, and consequently get a few furniture businesses and research scientists funded who would supply steady press releases to a lazy media that tired of it after a few years.
- jstx1 4y ago
  Not really, you're just trading off one set of problems for another if you work in one position all the time. Given that most modern standing desks are adjustable, it's pretty convenient to have more options.
- tzs 4y ago
  More a reflection of people having trouble with nonbinary thinking. Research shows that sitting all day is not good...and many people take that as meaning they should not sit at all. They think their only choices are sitting all day or standing all day. You can see a similar thing with diets. Someone reads that lowering carbs might have some benefits so they try to change their diet from one that has 60% of its calories from carbs to one that has 10% or less. In reality they are likely to get many of the low carb benefits if they cut from 60% to 30-40%, and 40% is a heck of a lot easier to do than 10% (and so also something one is more likely to stick with long term and so actually have a chance to see benefits). Look at discussions here on HN about climate change, health and safety regulation, crime prevention, privacy regulation, transgender issues, and no doubt many others and you'll find a lot of people overlooking the possibility that anything other than the most extreme opposite approaches might be viable.
  - bckr 4y ago
    Thank you for this beautifully lucid comment, tzs. It would be valuable to pin this to the top of every thread.
baal80spam 4y ago
I wonder how does age affect these recommendations, if at all. The older I am, the more (or less?) should I stand? Does it even matter?
- least 4y ago
  My main takeaway from ergonomics is that it's not so much that there is a purely better way about doing things, but that you need to change things up and do it somewhat frequently. You can have two different parts of your body that want the exact opposite thing. For example, arm rests can be beneficial in helping someone with carpal tunnel issues, but at the same time, it can be detrimental to the ulnar nerve. Standing and sitting both have their own upsides and downsides. Your actions are probably more akin to rotating the tires on your car. It doesn't stop the wear from happening, but it does so more evenly and you'll get more mileage out of them by doing so.
cosmotic 4y ago
What does downward tilting mean?
- galleywest200 4y ago
  I assume something like this https://i.imgur.com/wiNgg41_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium https://i.imgur.com/wiNgg41_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&...
  - jefftk 4y ago
    That is definitely not good wrist posture, FYI. You want your wrist to be straight when typing.
    - cosmotic 4y ago
      Why is this the case? I would have thought the opposite.
      - jefftk 4y ago
        When your wrists are bent there's less room for internal movement. The same site has some illustrations showing how the think keyboard trays should be oriented, and they have straight wrists: https://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html https://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.htm.... (I don't like the page that much, since it doesn't show what I think is the best option: a flat keyboard with elbows at 90 and wrists straight, which you can achieve either with a sufficiently low desk, which I do, or a flat keyboard tray under a higher desk.)
        bee_rider 4y ago
        I'm not Cornell of course, do don't take my word for it, but a tented keyboard feels 1000% more comfortable for me than this negative incline setup. Maybe I have to re-work my elbow angle.
      - 4y ago
abledon 4y ago
so glad research like this is getting traction, some workplaces I was at, there was a stigma for programmers who kept leaving their desks to move around (PDD or Panopticon Driven Development)
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  When moving around, hold a notepad and pen and look angry/determined as if busy dealing with something that requires going to someone else’s desk.
roflc0ptic 4y ago
Product that would be really useful here is a sit stand desk that you can schedule: there’s just no way I’m realistically gonna context switch every 20 and 10 minutes to adjust my desk height; if it just happened and I had to intervene to stop it, I’d probably let it happen
- potatochup 4y ago
  The last sit-stand desk I had at work used LIN to talk between the interface and the motor. We built a little injection board to program this in for us. If you don't mind hacking the interface, it would be easier to solder something directly onto the microswitches and control that from an Arduino or whatever.
- s0rce 4y ago
  Isn't the proposal not to move your desk but to just get up and walk around? They specifically say simply standing isn't sufficient and the ergonomics of the standing desk isn't good anyways.
- ambrose2 4y ago
  I stand for meetings, that’s a forcing function that prompts me to switch.
pengaru 4y ago
I prefer sitting on the floor, it keeps me repositioning regularly. Except my current laptop, an X230, has the power coming out the rear. It physically presses the plug against with the floor when I have it tilted back partially resting on my shins/ankles while sitting cross-legged. The X61s was way better in this regard with its side mounted power jack. I should probably just upgrade to an AMD X13 already.
- dayvid 4y ago
  Do you get neck issues, though? Looking down at a laptop isn't a great position for your head. I usually use a laptop stand to keep my eye level with the screen. Also, having a laptop spend hours directly on your lap may not be good for your reproductive organs. Not sure on this one, though.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    No neck issues AFAIK, it's not like I stay in one position for too long. The configuration I end up using the most is with the laptop sitting flat on the floor, one foot resting planted next to the laptop, chin resting on that leg's knee. That side's arm snakes under that knee toward the keys. The other leg is tucked in like cross-legged, other arm's elbow barely touching that leg's calf, straight to the keys. This setup puts my chest against the thigh of the upright leg with the chin on it. It's a super relaxed configuration, and I'll just alternate which knee is up vs. tucked in periodically.
  - geowwy 4y ago
    It's not a problem. Just put your laptop on a coffee table or similar. This setup works quite well with a wireless keyboard that has a built-in trackpad. The keyboard can move between the table, the floor, your lap, etc.
    - pengaru 4y ago
      I have a coffee table height desk integrated into my loft space where I'll often use my laptop while seated on the loft's floor. It's actually more annoying than just having the laptop on the floor and leaning my chest forward against a bent up knee. But it is a nice option for variety sake, and in my setup it's also the orientation required to enjoy the windowed view outside. In terms of pure ergonomics and computing comfort though, it's not as good as just the floor. There's also the whole multihead display thing that the low desk provides, it's always a compromise.
civilized 4y ago
I guess that settles it - the Pomodoro is the correct work pattern. It's the only one that works in these breaks every half hour.
jefftk 4y ago
Their main argument against sit-stand desks is that people don't actually stand much: "In our field studies of sit-stand workstations we have found little evidence of dramatic widespread benefits and users only stand for very short-periods (15 minutes or less total per day). Other studies have found that the use of sit-stand stations rapidly declines so that after 1 month a majority of people are sitting all the time, so compliance can be problematic." While that's a consideration if the question is "should we install these desks everywhere", if you already use a sit-stand desk and know you spend substantial time in both positions (as I do) that's not a reason to switch to full-time sitting.
feral 4y ago
Not entirely the same, but since the pandemic and WFH, I've started doing a lot of my 1:1s while walking, voice only. I'd be really interested to know if anyone else has started doing this? Typically, both people walk, using good Bluetooth headphones. I was finding the combination of staring at the screen while coding, and then also during meetings, to be very straining. Something about having to focus intently on the screen during a 1:1 was particularly tiring. Maybe because it's socially rude to look away while the other person is talking, so you end up really staring at the screen? Now, instead, during a walking meeting, I exercise and get to look into the distance. The most surprising thing for me was the ability to have technical conversations like this. I expected we'd really suffer without a whiteboard. Sometimes this is true, but I find we can have a lot of very technical conversations with voice only, and actually it's often easier than with video chat - because with voice only, I can focus more on the technical issues being discussed. Finally, there are some days where I have a couple of hours walking meetings scattered throughout the day, and this is a lot of extra movement, which has to be good. I wish there were more employers experimenting with different communication modalities like this; I feel the pandemic for all it's costs, has shown there are some great opportunities for other ways of working which have been underexplored.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- FrojoS 4y ago
  Same here. Back to the 80s! I was born in the mid 80s but I once heard that the economy of the 80s was basically “people talking to other people on the phone.”
- coding123 4y ago
  Not myself but our tech VP does this all the time. It's kinda funny when he runs into neighbors or sees a weird reptile (he's in Florida)
- Swizec 4y ago
  > I'd be really interested to know if anyone else has started doing this? We used to do this at the office and it was great. For private meetings between 2 people, go for a walk! It has worked great for mastermind calls also. But now at a new job that’s fully wfh it somehow didn’t stick. I tried a few times but I’m asked to participate too actively and people get frustrated with background noise because they aren’t using headphones at home. Laptop speakers are just not high quality enough to make it work even with voice isolation. Plus I have too many back-to-backs nowadays and walking outside creates too much overhead. Kept missing things.
padolsey 4y ago
WFH is wonderful because you can go from sitting in lotus to standing with a gentle sway to lying down to barefoot yoga all without raising any eyebrows. Eg. I love lying on my belly with a pillow propping up my chest and my laptop in front of me. No way to reasonably do that at 99% of offices.
- convolvatron 4y ago
  I used to do that quite a bit, but I developed thoracic outlet syndrome (nerve compression) and some other odd shoulder problems. now I have a gantry with a monitor that slides over my bed and can lie on my back with a kinesis keyboard at lap level and go for hours without any discomfort.
  - rochak 4y ago
    Can you share more about this setup? I’d like to build something similar.
    - convolvatron 4y ago
      I used some pieces of 1-1/4 inch square steel tube with 1/8" wall to make some adjustable 90 degree clamps that grab 1" tube. then i made a custom clamp with a 100mm vesa plate attached. and 4 short pieces of tube with wheels attached. then just cut 1" tube to approximate size, assemble, and adjust. it rolls back and forth along both sides of the bed. I have it set about 3 feet above me, and I added a little shelf to hold a laptop and other crap, and wire tied a power strip to the side. bluetooth trackball and kinesis. its a bit odd, but its really nice to be able to work in a neutral and relaxed position. I usually only do lying work, sitting work, or standing work for about an hour at a time.
- roflyear 4y ago
  That's great! But I never understood how people can be productive on a laptop. I feel like having such a small screen reduces your productivity drastically. I would be very unproductive on a laptop.
dayvid 4y ago
The ultimate state is Wolfram walking around in the woods with a laptop harness: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-productive-life-some-details-of-my-personal-infrastructure/ https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...
- bee_rider 4y ago
  Seems like a bit of bulky setup. Kinda hoping in the next decade or so we'll get good enough augmented reality that we'll be able to walk around in the woods with a floating terminal. Maybe a chorded keyer for input.
  - JadeNB 4y ago
    > Kinda hoping in the next decade or so we'll get good enough augmented reality that we'll be able to walk around in the woods with a floating terminal. Maybe a chorded keyer for input. Wolfram has also had that hope, according to the linked article: > I’d actually been thinking about walking and working for a long time. Twenty years ago I imagined doing it with an augmented reality display and a one-handed (chorded) keyboard. But the technology didn’t arrive, and I wasn’t even sure the ergonomics would work out (would it make me motion sick, for example?).
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      Oops, I should have read it -- I just scrolled and looked at the pictures, haha.
- AlphaWeaver 4y ago
  I've tried one of these, and it's difficult to type and walk at the same time. I love walking, sometimes walking for multiple hours on the weekends, but I wasn't able to make the "walking workstation" work.
- s0rce 4y ago
  Or Steve Mann. Seems like Meta reality labs wants us all to live in that future.
merrvk 4y ago
I barely stand still for more than a few minutes when using a standing desk. Especially on long calls, I will move about far more than when sitting. Though after reading this, I’m asking myself should I be sitting more?
scrapcode 4y ago
Has anyone had any luck with a long range headset or Bluetooth extenders?
SilkRoadie 4y ago
Anecdotally, I have had a sit-stand desk for 6 months. I sit for tasks which require typing and stand for the majority of calls I participate in. I average about 2 hours of calls a day. Before getting the desk I would get stiff in the day from over-sitting. Since getting the desk that is been corrected. When standing I find I am more expressive in calls and feel I fidget less while listening. I should note I sometimes catch myself with the desk at a weird height and I have taken on a gollum pose crouched on my chair. I think I would agree that the level of computing work is slightly impaired while standing. I am not sure the reasoning. I feel my posture is good and it is comfortable to do. Perhaps cognitively this is not a task I have enough practice doing while standing.
- loloquwowndueo 4y ago
  +1 on standing for meetings/calls. I’ve found it helps me be more alert and pay more attention, and the change of posture prevents getting sore from sitting on my ass all day.
  - bckr 4y ago
    > and the change of posture prevents getting sore from sitting on my ass all day. The change of posture prevents my ass from getting sore from sitting on it all day.
- seer 4y ago
  Hah have had a standing desk that you can sit and code on too for ~ 6 years. I think I’m the other way around, I prefer standing for coding, as I can concentrate and forget which position my body is actually in. But meetings are just sooo much less bandwidth of information that I get bored easily. Standing for them just feels silly to me, so I either walk around or sit somewhere comfortable like a couch / sofa / balcony and enjoy drinking some tea.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
analog31 4y ago
I switch to standing when my back and neck hurt, and switch back to sitting when my feet hurt. The standing desk isn't a continuous necessity, but an outlet for occasional periods of back and neck pain.
neilv 4y ago
Standing alone isn't as good as movement, but I do all my meetings that way. When you're on cam, people can tell by movement that you're not sitting, but so far I'm not aware that's a downside. For standing with laptop, when I had a proper desk, I'd use an egg crate-style container (with felt protector glued on) atop it, and be able to switch stand/sit within seconds. Now I use my laptop atop a height-adjustable "lectern" on casters, and wheel it around to wherever I want to be, for light, etc. When not standing, I just carry laptop to a comfortable chair or other place I want to slouch with bad posture. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079MH6BCL/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079MH6BCL/
stakkur 4y ago
I have a sit/stand adjustable desk. Here's what I do: 1. Stand for first ~1 hour of the day. 2. Depending on how I feel, alternate sitting/standing about every hour or so until lunch. 3. After lunchtime, stand for ~30-60 minutes. 4. Repeat step 2 until end of day. I also walk for ~30 minutes/day in the mid-morning. When I return from that, I sit. I also take eye breaks and try to use a pomodoro method (25 min working, 5 min. looking away/etc). The key to feeling good seems to be variety, as the article implies. I can't ever go back to a sitting-only desk arrangement.
- jstx1 4y ago
  Since I'm using one desk for work and personal use, I stand during working hours and sit down the rest of the time. There's something psychologically satisfying about splitting it that way.
dang 4y ago
Related: Cornell Ergonomics Web finds standing desks present their own issues - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2995194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2995194 - Sept 2011 (108 comments)
coding123 4y ago
Been WFH for many years. I typically can't sit for more than 2 hours. I need to get around and stretch, even lie down on the bed so my back feels better.
j45 4y ago
I've had standing desk for a while and still no routine. I just alternate pretty regularly for what feels good. If I'm feeling a little restless, I stand. If I'm a little tired, I sit. There are some great, thin $3-400 treadmills that are light that can be used for walking as well for those interested.
gavmor 4y ago
Any modern conversation of workplace ergonomics is incomplete without mention of biomechanist Katy Bowman, whose "Move Your DNA"[0] is an indispensable read for anyone maintaining a physical body. As best I can interpret it, her ultimate conclusion is to hold no position for too long, and introduce novel movement into every activity (rather than, specifically, relegating "healthy" movement to an "exercise" period, while otherwise indulging in "unhealthy" movement for large blocks of time). Combined with further research elsewhere — such as studies cited in Annie Murphy Paul's "Extended Mind"[1] and those on alleviating ADHD symptoms through movement[2] — it's possible that the ideal workplace is an unrecognizably dynamic one where even the most cerebral workers spring from treadmill to trampoline, to napping cot, to promenade. For just a taste of such dynamicity, here's a fast-forwarded hour of Katy Bowman fidgeting her way through the workday.[3] Edit: I want to address something specific in the linked article. The claim that "Standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet." I am absolutely certain that this is true, but it doesn't diminish the value of a standing desk. One principle I've absorbed from Bowman's writing is that all rest is strain, which is to say that to rest one limb one must rest on another, straining it. (Who hasn't woken up with a "crick in the neck" or another sign of slept-on strain?) The trick, then, is to rotate strain throughout all the various limbs of the body. Not only have all our limbs have evolved to handle certain loads, they've evolved to expect and dare-I-say crave certain loads in order to keep functioning. So, yes, "standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet," but a degree of strain is essentially therapeutic. 0. https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/product/move-your-dna-restore-your-health-through-natural-movement-expanded-edition-e-book/ https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/product/move-your-dna-res... 1. https://anniemurphypaul.com/books/the-extended-mind/ https://anniemurphypaul.com/books/the-extended-mind/ 2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201506/increasing-physical-movement-reduces-symptoms-adhd https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201... 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEpEAdCWnw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEpEAdCWnw8
rubicon33 4y ago
If you find it difficult to stand for long period of time (as I did, after purchasing a standing desk) then I implore you to consider getting an under desk treadmill. I went from spending 15-30 minutes a DAY standing, to 4+ hours walking. Doesn't that make it hard to type, you ask? Well, the posted article does mention this: > Treadmill, bicycle and elliptical workstations have been tested and typically shown to decrease computer work performance (typing and mousing slows down and significantly more mistakes are made). But personally, I got used to it quickly and found that my performance on the computer did not decrease at all for programming related tasks, where ultra fine mouse movements are not necessary. If I were trying to play Call of Duty or something, then surely I would not walk. The one time where I do find sitting to be ideal is when I really need to focus very intently on a task. For example, if it's an entirely new problem domain where I need to read a lot and focus at my maximum attention, then I need to be seated quietly, in a dim room, for a long period of time.
- theonething 4y ago
  Would you mind sharing which treadmill you use/recommend?
  - rubicon33 4y ago
    https://www.treadly.co/ https://www.treadly.co/ This is what I use. But, I would encourage you to do some quick searching on Amazon. There are some much cheaper options that may do all you need. Technically the treadly treadmill is for working out / running. It's HUGE attractive feature for me was that I could store it under my bed when company comes over and I need the office to look tidy. Also worth mentioning that I have the treadly model 1 (they're on v2.0) and I've had to send it in twice for repair. It's now out of warranty, and if it fails again I will be screwed. Hence why I've done a quick Amazon search myself and seen that indeed there are some interesting options since my purchase a few years ago.
    - theonething 4y ago
      Thanks and sorry, another question if you don't mind. How easy is it (in general, not necessarily fo this model you mention) to transition from walking to sitting and vice-versa? Do you just roll it away and roll in you chair?
d33k4y 4y ago
I should be dead by now. (I'm not dead yet!)
altvali 4y ago
I doubt I can be productive at programming if I have to be interrupted every 20, 8 and 2 minutes to adjust my stance. Every time I tried that I failed. Should I keep trying?
- roflyear 4y ago
  Hmmm. I think it depends. Personally I just drink so much water I have to pee like every 30m. I think during this time I should take an extra five minutes and stand up!
  - tomjakubowski 4y ago
    how much water are you drinking to have to pee every 30m?
    - roflyear 4y ago
      It is hyperbole, but lots of water.
    - kayodelycaon 4y ago
      For myself, ~3 liters per day will do it. I make herbal tea in a liter at a time and for a while I was doing that 2~3 per day. Note, I use 1 pouch per liter and usually rotate between a half a dozen different teas, so I'm not overdosing anything.
  - alliao 4y ago
    yeah your Nephrologist might have something to say about that...
- s0rce 4y ago
  I just try to listen to my body. Are there times when I'm focused and productive for a couple hours, sure, but if not and there are opportunities to get up then I take them. I don't try and make it a hard and fast rule. I'll also try to go for a walk at lunch if I didn't ride my bike to the office that day.
- 4y ago
hellodanylo 4y ago
I have been working on an iOS/MacOS app that reminds me to stand up and/or take breaks at certain intervals. It's using the iPhone's camera and local computer vision to collect ground truth. Drop me an email at "hello at danylo dot me", if you would like to beta test with me. Or watch an informal demo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvzHrwjU9TU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvzHrwjU9TU
- jazzabeanie 4y ago
  I would love something like this that also checked if you were mouth breathing and gave you a reminder to breath through the nose.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > I have been working on an iOS/MacOS app that reminds me to stand up and/or take breaks at certain intervals. I just put an hourglass on my desk, but out of reach. Sand runs out, get up to flip it. One nice feature is that it makes no noise so if I'm in a meeting and can't get up or attend to it, it isn't disrupting anything or interrupting anyone. Getting into the habit of looking up at it from time to time is also good for the eyes.
adfjalkfja 4y ago
WFH I get up and move around a lot more often. In the office I'd just feel like a distraction, glued to the chair with a guilty feeling
askvictor 4y ago
> Others have proposed a treadmill workstation or a bicycle workstation or an elliptical workstation or a _hamster wheel_ workstation Hamster Wheel workstation? This sounds compelling...
slategruen 4y ago
Anyone else here prefer sitting on the floor instead? It's a common practice here in Asia. Maybe it's just me but I experience less frequent back pain when sitting on a floor compared to sitting on a chair. One reason I posit is I shift my body more frequently when sitting on the floor. A chair (even an ergonomic one) seem to encourage you to stay in one position for a long time.
- bluGill 4y ago
  I often sit cross legged on my chair. Wears my chair out faster, but I prefer it. I can't find a desk that will go lower enough to sit on the floor. I.also stand at times, but I can't do it long.
gumby 4y ago
> then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes. Ah, I see you don’t have hour long zoom calls. I attend most zoom calls muted with video off, in part so I can stand and walk around / do some lunges, and in part so I can zone out when the inevitable blowhards get the mike. Honestly this also helps when someone does have an interesting screen share. But I have been told “video off” is passive aggressive so I don’t know how much longer I can pull this off.
- geggo98 4y ago
  > But I have been told “video off” is passive aggressive so I don’t know how much longer I can pull this off. “Video off” is often necessary, because your laptop runs low on battery, or has run too hot. Sometimes your Wi-Fi might just be bad, forcing you to audio only. A colleague of mine could not turn on video while the Anti virus was running, or the PC would get overloaded (hint: it was running all the time, as mandated by the security guidelines). You might also not feel well with being watched because of personal reasons. And since it’s personal, it would not be the other person’s business. If you are at home, video might interfere with other people’s privacy. Just think about the neighbor sunbathing while visible from your window. Don’t want to risk streaming things to work that are not safe for work.
frereubu 4y ago
A physio I went to see about some neck / shoulder issues said that the reason standing desks are good is that they make you move, not that they make you stand per se. He took part in a study where he had to stand completely still for as long as possible and it was very painful after a short time. The value in standing desks is therefore that they make people move - if you stand really still it's not going to help. When using my standing desk I find myself doing things like the lower part of the yoga tree pose, moving in time to music that I'm listening to, and so on. I have a height-adjustable desks and manage about half a day of standing, then sit down in the afternoon. That works really well for me.
virtualritz 4y ago
What posture does ‘sitting’ entail? I read somewhere the least pressure on your spine is when your torso/legs are at 135°. I can confirm this from personal experience. I spent the entire pandemic, i.e. almost two years, working from home from a chaiselongue that a friend of mine produces [1]. I only ever used it for reading books or watching movies via my projector before that. It turned out it is perfect for doing computer work. The angle of legs to torso is between 130–140° on this piece of furniture. I never had any fatigue in my spine, pressure points on my body or pain from tensed muscles anywhere. We're talking up to 12 hours/day on this with two 1h breaks in-between for lunch and dinner. I always used my laptop but now I am building a setup with a wall-mounted arm to hold a screen and keyboard, below, that I can fold away. I will post here once I have it set up. [1] https://www.saschaulber.com/shop/coffy/ https://www.saschaulber.com/shop/coffy/ – it's currently unavailable because of post-pandemic related supply chain problems
Havoc 4y ago
I can definitely stand a full day but it is exhausting. 60% stand 40% sit seems good to me
z9znz 4y ago
After 12 years of mostly standing for work (software development), the part of this article I sadly can agree with is the wrist/carpal tunnel issue. I'm probably on the extreme end of "standers", as I routinely stand for 12+ hours at my computer. If my partner is not around, I'll not only stand for the full work day but also the entire evening. There may be days where the only time I sit is in the bathroom... Only recently, as I allowed a bad diet and lack of exercise to become a problem, have I found myself less able to stand as much. But the real issue is the forearms, wrists, and hands. I believe it should be possible to arrange my desktop in a way that gives me the same ergonomics as sitting (with respect to arms), but so far I haven't got it quite right. Probably the right answer is just to cut my time at the computer in half and spend the other half of my time out being active :).
cdavid 4y ago
A similar setup more or less saved my PhD 15 years ago. I got RSI to the point that it was debilitating: any arm movement that required bending my arm would be painful (shaving, brushing tooth, etc.). I considered stopping my PhD. What likely saved me was using workrave on my linux workstation: this is a software that forces you to take 30 sec break every 10 mins, and 5 (or 10 ?) mins every hour. It does so by disabling the keyboard (there is an escape hatch ofc). The hourly break, I would stand and walk. I've been working as a SWE since then. Last few years, I started typing less (moved to management), but I am now > 40 and can still use keyboard w/o much trouble. It is very easy to try workrave, so I would recommend people taking a look.
Ensorceled 4y ago
Standing isn't a panacea for health issues caused by too much sitting, movement is. I found my overall health and well being improved greatly when I stopped trying to use my standing desk and instead made sure to go for a walk first thing before starting work and paying heed to my Apple watch when it says get up and move around.
alliao 4y ago
I really want to try out a desk cycle, looks dorky AF any down sides to hip wear etc?

151 points by yamrzou 4y ago

Made my first standing desk ~1998. Just a used door and 2x4s. I've always just used barstools. You also need a rubber mat. Especially if the floor is concrete. Or really good shoes or work boots. I lost about 30lbs. After about 3 months, I was able to stand for any length of time, without discomfort. The social benefits were great too. Quick meetings, huddles, mood checks. Or my team would pull up barstools and use my desk as a shared workspace as needed. Probably the outcome those agile proponents were shooting for with their "standup meetings" stuff. Eventually, about 1/2 my team also got standing desks. Then other teams joined the movement. Adjustable desks seem like overkill to me. And per this article, the novelty quickly wears off. Use the money to buy more, better monitors instead.

vavooom 4y ago

“The bottom line: Sit to do computer work. Sit using a height-adjustable, downward titling keyboard tray for the best work posture, then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes. “ Pretty sensible that movement is key to solution. Long on-camera remote meetings always bug me and I tend to take a few minutes to walk around or pace if I can go camera off.

ozim 4y ago

So standing desks are snake oil of our times.

62951413 4y ago
A dozen years ago when people started using them I thought those were rather odd fellows. Fast forward to the point where after 20+ years of coding lower back pain is quite common unless I work at a standing desk a lot.
beebmam 4y ago
But sit-stand desks are not.
InvaderFizz 4y ago
They do wonders for me. Any chair I sit in mostly upright for more than a few minutes will start to cause me pain in my lower back. (Herniated L4-L5) Alternatively, a standing desk where I have tons of movement and am constantly moving my feet and legs, I can stand at all day long. I'm sure it's distracting when I'm on camera, I'm constantly swaying from side to side.
bgribble 4y ago
I've been a full-time developer since about 1993. I switched to 100% standing at work in 2014 sort of on a whim. Before that, I had a significant episode of back pain (enough to leave me unable to function normally) about once a year. Since then, never once. I'm sure it's complicated and I know correlation is not causality. But my personal belief is that standing is a huge benefit for my back's health as a programmer.
pessimizer 4y ago
Less the snake oil of our times than a trendy fad from 10 years ago that managed to accumulate a few fanatics, and consequently get a few furniture businesses and research scientists funded who would supply steady press releases to a lazy media that tired of it after a few years.
jstx1 4y ago
Not really, you're just trading off one set of problems for another if you work in one position all the time. Given that most modern standing desks are adjustable, it's pretty convenient to have more options.
tzs 4y ago
More a reflection of people having trouble with nonbinary thinking. Research shows that sitting all day is not good...and many people take that as meaning they should not sit at all. They think their only choices are sitting all day or standing all day. You can see a similar thing with diets. Someone reads that lowering carbs might have some benefits so they try to change their diet from one that has 60% of its calories from carbs to one that has 10% or less. In reality they are likely to get many of the low carb benefits if they cut from 60% to 30-40%, and 40% is a heck of a lot easier to do than 10% (and so also something one is more likely to stick with long term and so actually have a chance to see benefits). Look at discussions here on HN about climate change, health and safety regulation, crime prevention, privacy regulation, transgender issues, and no doubt many others and you'll find a lot of people overlooking the possibility that anything other than the most extreme opposite approaches might be viable.
- bckr 4y ago
  Thank you for this beautifully lucid comment, tzs. It would be valuable to pin this to the top of every thread.

baal80spam 4y ago

I wonder how does age affect these recommendations, if at all. The older I am, the more (or less?) should I stand? Does it even matter?

least 4y ago
My main takeaway from ergonomics is that it's not so much that there is a purely better way about doing things, but that you need to change things up and do it somewhat frequently. You can have two different parts of your body that want the exact opposite thing. For example, arm rests can be beneficial in helping someone with carpal tunnel issues, but at the same time, it can be detrimental to the ulnar nerve. Standing and sitting both have their own upsides and downsides. Your actions are probably more akin to rotating the tires on your car. It doesn't stop the wear from happening, but it does so more evenly and you'll get more mileage out of them by doing so.

cosmotic 4y ago

What does downward tilting mean?

galleywest200 4y ago
I assume something like this https://i.imgur.com/wiNgg41_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium https://i.imgur.com/wiNgg41_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&...
- jefftk 4y ago
  That is definitely not good wrist posture, FYI. You want your wrist to be straight when typing.
  - cosmotic 4y ago
    Why is this the case? I would have thought the opposite.
    - jefftk 4y ago
      When your wrists are bent there's less room for internal movement. The same site has some illustrations showing how the think keyboard trays should be oriented, and they have straight wrists: https://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html https://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.htm.... (I don't like the page that much, since it doesn't show what I think is the best option: a flat keyboard with elbows at 90 and wrists straight, which you can achieve either with a sufficiently low desk, which I do, or a flat keyboard tray under a higher desk.)
      - bee_rider 4y ago
        I'm not Cornell of course, do don't take my word for it, but a tented keyboard feels 1000% more comfortable for me than this negative incline setup. Maybe I have to re-work my elbow angle.
    - 4y ago

abledon 4y ago

so glad research like this is getting traction, some workplaces I was at, there was a stigma for programmers who kept leaving their desks to move around (PDD or Panopticon Driven Development)

quickthrower2 4y ago
When moving around, hold a notepad and pen and look angry/determined as if busy dealing with something that requires going to someone else’s desk.

roflc0ptic 4y ago

Product that would be really useful here is a sit stand desk that you can schedule: there’s just no way I’m realistically gonna context switch every 20 and 10 minutes to adjust my desk height; if it just happened and I had to intervene to stop it, I’d probably let it happen

potatochup 4y ago
The last sit-stand desk I had at work used LIN to talk between the interface and the motor. We built a little injection board to program this in for us. If you don't mind hacking the interface, it would be easier to solder something directly onto the microswitches and control that from an Arduino or whatever.
s0rce 4y ago
Isn't the proposal not to move your desk but to just get up and walk around? They specifically say simply standing isn't sufficient and the ergonomics of the standing desk isn't good anyways.
ambrose2 4y ago
I stand for meetings, that’s a forcing function that prompts me to switch.

pengaru 4y ago

I prefer sitting on the floor, it keeps me repositioning regularly. Except my current laptop, an X230, has the power coming out the rear. It physically presses the plug against with the floor when I have it tilted back partially resting on my shins/ankles while sitting cross-legged. The X61s was way better in this regard with its side mounted power jack. I should probably just upgrade to an AMD X13 already.

dayvid 4y ago
Do you get neck issues, though? Looking down at a laptop isn't a great position for your head. I usually use a laptop stand to keep my eye level with the screen. Also, having a laptop spend hours directly on your lap may not be good for your reproductive organs. Not sure on this one, though.
- pengaru 4y ago
  No neck issues AFAIK, it's not like I stay in one position for too long. The configuration I end up using the most is with the laptop sitting flat on the floor, one foot resting planted next to the laptop, chin resting on that leg's knee. That side's arm snakes under that knee toward the keys. The other leg is tucked in like cross-legged, other arm's elbow barely touching that leg's calf, straight to the keys. This setup puts my chest against the thigh of the upright leg with the chin on it. It's a super relaxed configuration, and I'll just alternate which knee is up vs. tucked in periodically.
- geowwy 4y ago
  It's not a problem. Just put your laptop on a coffee table or similar. This setup works quite well with a wireless keyboard that has a built-in trackpad. The keyboard can move between the table, the floor, your lap, etc.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    I have a coffee table height desk integrated into my loft space where I'll often use my laptop while seated on the loft's floor. It's actually more annoying than just having the laptop on the floor and leaning my chest forward against a bent up knee. But it is a nice option for variety sake, and in my setup it's also the orientation required to enjoy the windowed view outside. In terms of pure ergonomics and computing comfort though, it's not as good as just the floor. There's also the whole multihead display thing that the low desk provides, it's always a compromise.

civilized 4y ago

I guess that settles it - the Pomodoro is the correct work pattern. It's the only one that works in these breaks every half hour.

jefftk 4y ago

Their main argument against sit-stand desks is that people don't actually stand much: "In our field studies of sit-stand workstations we have found little evidence of dramatic widespread benefits and users only stand for very short-periods (15 minutes or less total per day). Other studies have found that the use of sit-stand stations rapidly declines so that after 1 month a majority of people are sitting all the time, so compliance can be problematic." While that's a consideration if the question is "should we install these desks everywhere", if you already use a sit-stand desk and know you spend substantial time in both positions (as I do) that's not a reason to switch to full-time sitting.

feral 4y ago

Not entirely the same, but since the pandemic and WFH, I've started doing a lot of my 1:1s while walking, voice only. I'd be really interested to know if anyone else has started doing this? Typically, both people walk, using good Bluetooth headphones. I was finding the combination of staring at the screen while coding, and then also during meetings, to be very straining. Something about having to focus intently on the screen during a 1:1 was particularly tiring. Maybe because it's socially rude to look away while the other person is talking, so you end up really staring at the screen? Now, instead, during a walking meeting, I exercise and get to look into the distance. The most surprising thing for me was the ability to have technical conversations like this. I expected we'd really suffer without a whiteboard. Sometimes this is true, but I find we can have a lot of very technical conversations with voice only, and actually it's often easier than with video chat - because with voice only, I can focus more on the technical issues being discussed. Finally, there are some days where I have a couple of hours walking meetings scattered throughout the day, and this is a lot of extra movement, which has to be good. I wish there were more employers experimenting with different communication modalities like this; I feel the pandemic for all it's costs, has shown there are some great opportunities for other ways of working which have been underexplored.

deleted 4y ago
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FrojoS 4y ago
Same here. Back to the 80s! I was born in the mid 80s but I once heard that the economy of the 80s was basically “people talking to other people on the phone.”
coding123 4y ago
Not myself but our tech VP does this all the time. It's kinda funny when he runs into neighbors or sees a weird reptile (he's in Florida)
Swizec 4y ago
> I'd be really interested to know if anyone else has started doing this? We used to do this at the office and it was great. For private meetings between 2 people, go for a walk! It has worked great for mastermind calls also. But now at a new job that’s fully wfh it somehow didn’t stick. I tried a few times but I’m asked to participate too actively and people get frustrated with background noise because they aren’t using headphones at home. Laptop speakers are just not high quality enough to make it work even with voice isolation. Plus I have too many back-to-backs nowadays and walking outside creates too much overhead. Kept missing things.

padolsey 4y ago

WFH is wonderful because you can go from sitting in lotus to standing with a gentle sway to lying down to barefoot yoga all without raising any eyebrows. Eg. I love lying on my belly with a pillow propping up my chest and my laptop in front of me. No way to reasonably do that at 99% of offices.

convolvatron 4y ago
I used to do that quite a bit, but I developed thoracic outlet syndrome (nerve compression) and some other odd shoulder problems. now I have a gantry with a monitor that slides over my bed and can lie on my back with a kinesis keyboard at lap level and go for hours without any discomfort.
- rochak 4y ago
  Can you share more about this setup? I’d like to build something similar.
  - convolvatron 4y ago
    I used some pieces of 1-1/4 inch square steel tube with 1/8" wall to make some adjustable 90 degree clamps that grab 1" tube. then i made a custom clamp with a 100mm vesa plate attached. and 4 short pieces of tube with wheels attached. then just cut 1" tube to approximate size, assemble, and adjust. it rolls back and forth along both sides of the bed. I have it set about 3 feet above me, and I added a little shelf to hold a laptop and other crap, and wire tied a power strip to the side. bluetooth trackball and kinesis. its a bit odd, but its really nice to be able to work in a neutral and relaxed position. I usually only do lying work, sitting work, or standing work for about an hour at a time.
roflyear 4y ago
That's great! But I never understood how people can be productive on a laptop. I feel like having such a small screen reduces your productivity drastically. I would be very unproductive on a laptop.

dayvid 4y ago

The ultimate state is Wolfram walking around in the woods with a laptop harness: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-productive-life-some-details-of-my-personal-infrastructure/ https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...

bee_rider 4y ago
Seems like a bit of bulky setup. Kinda hoping in the next decade or so we'll get good enough augmented reality that we'll be able to walk around in the woods with a floating terminal. Maybe a chorded keyer for input.
- JadeNB 4y ago
  > Kinda hoping in the next decade or so we'll get good enough augmented reality that we'll be able to walk around in the woods with a floating terminal. Maybe a chorded keyer for input. Wolfram has also had that hope, according to the linked article: > I’d actually been thinking about walking and working for a long time. Twenty years ago I imagined doing it with an augmented reality display and a one-handed (chorded) keyboard. But the technology didn’t arrive, and I wasn’t even sure the ergonomics would work out (would it make me motion sick, for example?).
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    Oops, I should have read it -- I just scrolled and looked at the pictures, haha.
AlphaWeaver 4y ago
I've tried one of these, and it's difficult to type and walk at the same time. I love walking, sometimes walking for multiple hours on the weekends, but I wasn't able to make the "walking workstation" work.
s0rce 4y ago
Or Steve Mann. Seems like Meta reality labs wants us all to live in that future.

merrvk 4y ago

I barely stand still for more than a few minutes when using a standing desk. Especially on long calls, I will move about far more than when sitting. Though after reading this, I’m asking myself should I be sitting more?

scrapcode 4y ago

Has anyone had any luck with a long range headset or Bluetooth extenders?

SilkRoadie 4y ago

Anecdotally, I have had a sit-stand desk for 6 months. I sit for tasks which require typing and stand for the majority of calls I participate in. I average about 2 hours of calls a day. Before getting the desk I would get stiff in the day from over-sitting. Since getting the desk that is been corrected. When standing I find I am more expressive in calls and feel I fidget less while listening. I should note I sometimes catch myself with the desk at a weird height and I have taken on a gollum pose crouched on my chair. I think I would agree that the level of computing work is slightly impaired while standing. I am not sure the reasoning. I feel my posture is good and it is comfortable to do. Perhaps cognitively this is not a task I have enough practice doing while standing.

loloquwowndueo 4y ago
+1 on standing for meetings/calls. I’ve found it helps me be more alert and pay more attention, and the change of posture prevents getting sore from sitting on my ass all day.
- bckr 4y ago
  > and the change of posture prevents getting sore from sitting on my ass all day. The change of posture prevents my ass from getting sore from sitting on it all day.
seer 4y ago
Hah have had a standing desk that you can sit and code on too for ~ 6 years. I think I’m the other way around, I prefer standing for coding, as I can concentrate and forget which position my body is actually in. But meetings are just sooo much less bandwidth of information that I get bored easily. Standing for them just feels silly to me, so I either walk around or sit somewhere comfortable like a couch / sofa / balcony and enjoy drinking some tea.

deleted 4y ago

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analog31 4y ago

I switch to standing when my back and neck hurt, and switch back to sitting when my feet hurt. The standing desk isn't a continuous necessity, but an outlet for occasional periods of back and neck pain.

neilv 4y ago

Standing alone isn't as good as movement, but I do all my meetings that way. When you're on cam, people can tell by movement that you're not sitting, but so far I'm not aware that's a downside. For standing with laptop, when I had a proper desk, I'd use an egg crate-style container (with felt protector glued on) atop it, and be able to switch stand/sit within seconds. Now I use my laptop atop a height-adjustable "lectern" on casters, and wheel it around to wherever I want to be, for light, etc. When not standing, I just carry laptop to a comfortable chair or other place I want to slouch with bad posture. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079MH6BCL/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079MH6BCL/

stakkur 4y ago

I have a sit/stand adjustable desk. Here's what I do: 1. Stand for first ~1 hour of the day. 2. Depending on how I feel, alternate sitting/standing about every hour or so until lunch. 3. After lunchtime, stand for ~30-60 minutes. 4. Repeat step 2 until end of day. I also walk for ~30 minutes/day in the mid-morning. When I return from that, I sit. I also take eye breaks and try to use a pomodoro method (25 min working, 5 min. looking away/etc). The key to feeling good seems to be variety, as the article implies. I can't ever go back to a sitting-only desk arrangement.

jstx1 4y ago
Since I'm using one desk for work and personal use, I stand during working hours and sit down the rest of the time. There's something psychologically satisfying about splitting it that way.

dang 4y ago

Related: Cornell Ergonomics Web finds standing desks present their own issues - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2995194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2995194 - Sept 2011 (108 comments)

coding123 4y ago

Been WFH for many years. I typically can't sit for more than 2 hours. I need to get around and stretch, even lie down on the bed so my back feels better.

j45 4y ago

I've had standing desk for a while and still no routine. I just alternate pretty regularly for what feels good. If I'm feeling a little restless, I stand. If I'm a little tired, I sit. There are some great, thin $3-400 treadmills that are light that can be used for walking as well for those interested.

gavmor 4y ago

Any modern conversation of workplace ergonomics is incomplete without mention of biomechanist Katy Bowman, whose "Move Your DNA"[0] is an indispensable read for anyone maintaining a physical body. As best I can interpret it, her ultimate conclusion is to hold no position for too long, and introduce novel movement into every activity (rather than, specifically, relegating "healthy" movement to an "exercise" period, while otherwise indulging in "unhealthy" movement for large blocks of time). Combined with further research elsewhere — such as studies cited in Annie Murphy Paul's "Extended Mind"[1] and those on alleviating ADHD symptoms through movement[2] — it's possible that the ideal workplace is an unrecognizably dynamic one where even the most cerebral workers spring from treadmill to trampoline, to napping cot, to promenade. For just a taste of such dynamicity, here's a fast-forwarded hour of Katy Bowman fidgeting her way through the workday.[3] Edit: I want to address something specific in the linked article. The claim that "Standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet." I am absolutely certain that this is true, but it doesn't diminish the value of a standing desk. One principle I've absorbed from Bowman's writing is that all rest is strain, which is to say that to rest one limb one must rest on another, straining it. (Who hasn't woken up with a "crick in the neck" or another sign of slept-on strain?) The trick, then, is to rotate strain throughout all the various limbs of the body. Not only have all our limbs have evolved to handle certain loads, they've evolved to expect and dare-I-say crave certain loads in order to keep functioning. So, yes, "standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet," but a degree of strain is essentially therapeutic. 0. https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/product/move-your-dna-restore-your-health-through-natural-movement-expanded-edition-e-book/ https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/product/move-your-dna-res... 1. https://anniemurphypaul.com/books/the-extended-mind/ https://anniemurphypaul.com/books/the-extended-mind/ 2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201506/increasing-physical-movement-reduces-symptoms-adhd https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201... 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEpEAdCWnw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEpEAdCWnw8

rubicon33 4y ago

If you find it difficult to stand for long period of time (as I did, after purchasing a standing desk) then I implore you to consider getting an under desk treadmill. I went from spending 15-30 minutes a DAY standing, to 4+ hours walking. Doesn't that make it hard to type, you ask? Well, the posted article does mention this: > Treadmill, bicycle and elliptical workstations have been tested and typically shown to decrease computer work performance (typing and mousing slows down and significantly more mistakes are made). But personally, I got used to it quickly and found that my performance on the computer did not decrease at all for programming related tasks, where ultra fine mouse movements are not necessary. If I were trying to play Call of Duty or something, then surely I would not walk. The one time where I do find sitting to be ideal is when I really need to focus very intently on a task. For example, if it's an entirely new problem domain where I need to read a lot and focus at my maximum attention, then I need to be seated quietly, in a dim room, for a long period of time.

theonething 4y ago
Would you mind sharing which treadmill you use/recommend?
- rubicon33 4y ago
  https://www.treadly.co/ https://www.treadly.co/ This is what I use. But, I would encourage you to do some quick searching on Amazon. There are some much cheaper options that may do all you need. Technically the treadly treadmill is for working out / running. It's HUGE attractive feature for me was that I could store it under my bed when company comes over and I need the office to look tidy. Also worth mentioning that I have the treadly model 1 (they're on v2.0) and I've had to send it in twice for repair. It's now out of warranty, and if it fails again I will be screwed. Hence why I've done a quick Amazon search myself and seen that indeed there are some interesting options since my purchase a few years ago.
  - theonething 4y ago
    Thanks and sorry, another question if you don't mind. How easy is it (in general, not necessarily fo this model you mention) to transition from walking to sitting and vice-versa? Do you just roll it away and roll in you chair?

d33k4y 4y ago

I should be dead by now. (I'm not dead yet!)

altvali 4y ago

I doubt I can be productive at programming if I have to be interrupted every 20, 8 and 2 minutes to adjust my stance. Every time I tried that I failed. Should I keep trying?

roflyear 4y ago
Hmmm. I think it depends. Personally I just drink so much water I have to pee like every 30m. I think during this time I should take an extra five minutes and stand up!
- tomjakubowski 4y ago
  how much water are you drinking to have to pee every 30m?
  - roflyear 4y ago
    It is hyperbole, but lots of water.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    For myself, ~3 liters per day will do it. I make herbal tea in a liter at a time and for a while I was doing that 2~3 per day. Note, I use 1 pouch per liter and usually rotate between a half a dozen different teas, so I'm not overdosing anything.
- alliao 4y ago
  yeah your Nephrologist might have something to say about that...
s0rce 4y ago
I just try to listen to my body. Are there times when I'm focused and productive for a couple hours, sure, but if not and there are opportunities to get up then I take them. I don't try and make it a hard and fast rule. I'll also try to go for a walk at lunch if I didn't ride my bike to the office that day.
4y ago

hellodanylo 4y ago

I have been working on an iOS/MacOS app that reminds me to stand up and/or take breaks at certain intervals. It's using the iPhone's camera and local computer vision to collect ground truth. Drop me an email at "hello at danylo dot me", if you would like to beta test with me. Or watch an informal demo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvzHrwjU9TU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvzHrwjU9TU

jazzabeanie 4y ago
I would love something like this that also checked if you were mouth breathing and gave you a reminder to breath through the nose.
autoexec 4y ago
> I have been working on an iOS/MacOS app that reminds me to stand up and/or take breaks at certain intervals. I just put an hourglass on my desk, but out of reach. Sand runs out, get up to flip it. One nice feature is that it makes no noise so if I'm in a meeting and can't get up or attend to it, it isn't disrupting anything or interrupting anyone. Getting into the habit of looking up at it from time to time is also good for the eyes.

adfjalkfja 4y ago

WFH I get up and move around a lot more often. In the office I'd just feel like a distraction, glued to the chair with a guilty feeling

askvictor 4y ago

> Others have proposed a treadmill workstation or a bicycle workstation or an elliptical workstation or a _hamster wheel_ workstation Hamster Wheel workstation? This sounds compelling...

slategruen 4y ago

Anyone else here prefer sitting on the floor instead? It's a common practice here in Asia. Maybe it's just me but I experience less frequent back pain when sitting on a floor compared to sitting on a chair. One reason I posit is I shift my body more frequently when sitting on the floor. A chair (even an ergonomic one) seem to encourage you to stay in one position for a long time.

bluGill 4y ago
I often sit cross legged on my chair. Wears my chair out faster, but I prefer it. I can't find a desk that will go lower enough to sit on the floor. I.also stand at times, but I can't do it long.

gumby 4y ago

> then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes. Ah, I see you don’t have hour long zoom calls. I attend most zoom calls muted with video off, in part so I can stand and walk around / do some lunges, and in part so I can zone out when the inevitable blowhards get the mike. Honestly this also helps when someone does have an interesting screen share. But I have been told “video off” is passive aggressive so I don’t know how much longer I can pull this off.

geggo98 4y ago
> But I have been told “video off” is passive aggressive so I don’t know how much longer I can pull this off. “Video off” is often necessary, because your laptop runs low on battery, or has run too hot. Sometimes your Wi-Fi might just be bad, forcing you to audio only. A colleague of mine could not turn on video while the Anti virus was running, or the PC would get overloaded (hint: it was running all the time, as mandated by the security guidelines). You might also not feel well with being watched because of personal reasons. And since it’s personal, it would not be the other person’s business. If you are at home, video might interfere with other people’s privacy. Just think about the neighbor sunbathing while visible from your window. Don’t want to risk streaming things to work that are not safe for work.

frereubu 4y ago

A physio I went to see about some neck / shoulder issues said that the reason standing desks are good is that they make you move, not that they make you stand per se. He took part in a study where he had to stand completely still for as long as possible and it was very painful after a short time. The value in standing desks is therefore that they make people move - if you stand really still it's not going to help. When using my standing desk I find myself doing things like the lower part of the yoga tree pose, moving in time to music that I'm listening to, and so on. I have a height-adjustable desks and manage about half a day of standing, then sit down in the afternoon. That works really well for me.

virtualritz 4y ago

What posture does ‘sitting’ entail? I read somewhere the least pressure on your spine is when your torso/legs are at 135°. I can confirm this from personal experience. I spent the entire pandemic, i.e. almost two years, working from home from a chaiselongue that a friend of mine produces [1]. I only ever used it for reading books or watching movies via my projector before that. It turned out it is perfect for doing computer work. The angle of legs to torso is between 130–140° on this piece of furniture. I never had any fatigue in my spine, pressure points on my body or pain from tensed muscles anywhere. We're talking up to 12 hours/day on this with two 1h breaks in-between for lunch and dinner. I always used my laptop but now I am building a setup with a wall-mounted arm to hold a screen and keyboard, below, that I can fold away. I will post here once I have it set up. [1] https://www.saschaulber.com/shop/coffy/ https://www.saschaulber.com/shop/coffy/ – it's currently unavailable because of post-pandemic related supply chain problems

Havoc 4y ago

I can definitely stand a full day but it is exhausting. 60% stand 40% sit seems good to me

z9znz 4y ago

After 12 years of mostly standing for work (software development), the part of this article I sadly can agree with is the wrist/carpal tunnel issue. I'm probably on the extreme end of "standers", as I routinely stand for 12+ hours at my computer. If my partner is not around, I'll not only stand for the full work day but also the entire evening. There may be days where the only time I sit is in the bathroom... Only recently, as I allowed a bad diet and lack of exercise to become a problem, have I found myself less able to stand as much. But the real issue is the forearms, wrists, and hands. I believe it should be possible to arrange my desktop in a way that gives me the same ergonomics as sitting (with respect to arms), but so far I haven't got it quite right. Probably the right answer is just to cut my time at the computer in half and spend the other half of my time out being active :).

cdavid 4y ago

A similar setup more or less saved my PhD 15 years ago. I got RSI to the point that it was debilitating: any arm movement that required bending my arm would be painful (shaving, brushing tooth, etc.). I considered stopping my PhD. What likely saved me was using workrave on my linux workstation: this is a software that forces you to take 30 sec break every 10 mins, and 5 (or 10 ?) mins every hour. It does so by disabling the keyboard (there is an escape hatch ofc). The hourly break, I would stand and walk. I've been working as a SWE since then. Last few years, I started typing less (moved to management), but I am now > 40 and can still use keyboard w/o much trouble. It is very easy to try workrave, so I would recommend people taking a look.

Ensorceled 4y ago

Standing isn't a panacea for health issues caused by too much sitting, movement is. I found my overall health and well being improved greatly when I stopped trying to use my standing desk and instead made sure to go for a walk first thing before starting work and paying heed to my Apple watch when it says get up and move around.

alliao 4y ago

I really want to try out a desk cycle, looks dorky AF any down sides to hip wear etc?