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> "Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people ‘I offer you a good time,’ Hitler has said to them ‘I offer you struggle,
by photochemsyn 4y ago
> "Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people ‘I offer you a good time,’ Hitler has said to them ‘I offer you struggle, danger and death,’ and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet. Perhaps later on they will get sick of it and change their minds, as at the end of the last war."
I think there's been a profound change in popular thinking on this since the end of World War II, and it's all due to the nuclear arms race. Maybe the aerial bombardment of cities in the later years of WWII had an influence as well, and to some extent the reality of chemical and biological warfare, but it's really the threat of immediate nuclear annihilation that has made the 'world leaders' less enthusiastic about sending the young people off to die in wars in the name of national patriotism and defense of the country.
The result, however, has been a long string of proxy wars between the so-called 'Great Powers' (which are now defined as those having a sizeable nuclear arsenal), right on up to Ukraine today, and the rise of smaller nations with nuclear arsenals (Israel and North Korea) who view them as an indispensable protection from external forces. There's also the case of India and Pakistan, who likely would have fought several WWII-scale tank/air/sea battles by now without the looming threat of MAD to dissuade them.
It's not an argument that the nuclear disarmament organizations like to hear, but I think if we really got rid of nukes then we'd be back in large-scale aerial bombardment and mass tank battles, and of course in that situation there'd be frantic efforts to rebuild the nukes. I don't see them going away ever, sans their actual global-scale use, in which case it'll be back to sticks and stones.
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- sorokod 4y ago"made the 'world leaders' less enthusiastic about sending the young people off to die in wars in the name of national patriotism and defense of the country." Not supported by current events.
- GreenWatermelon 4y agoLess enthusiastic != Completely against NATO os certainly very reluctant to send forces into Russia, or even Ukraine for that matter. They can only send weapons to Ukraine.
- sorokod 4y agoRussian leadership has no such reservations.
- taf2 4y agoIt’s possible that MAD is wearing off as more conventional war emerges because no one believes the other side will dare use them… so it’s almost as if they are not there or a threat.
- asah 4y agoDunno, sure seems like Russia would've been attacked by now if it weren't for MAD...
- photochemsyn 4y agoI suppose that's true, and humans have regrettably short memories it seems. However, Ukraine has 15 nuclear power plants IIRC, and WWII-era 'total war' strategies would have included their immediate destruction to cripple Ukraine's power grid. This was the strategy the USA and allies followed in the Gulf War against non-nuclear Iraq: > "More than 90 percent of Iraq’s electrical capacity was bombed out of service in the first hours... This comprised the country’s 11 major electrical power stations and 119 substations. Existing generating capacity of 9,000 MW in December 1990 was reduced to only 340 MW by March 1991." https://aldeilis.net/english/physical-destruction-iraqs-infrastructure-gulf-war/ https://aldeilis.net/english/physical-destruction-iraqs-infr... Bombing functioning nuclear power plants would create a radioactive disaster and Russia wasn't willing to do that. By that metric, MAD is still in effect to some extent. It's also keeping Russia from attacking NATO bases, and NATO from attacking Russian bases, at least for now.
- anigbrowl 4y agoMAD is also not as simple as generally described in the popular press. Power Transition theory is a school of thought that has some interesting ideas about the emergence of conflict and fits into a social physics type analysis.
- anigbrowl 4y agosending the young people off to die in wars This does of course happen, but one shouldn't underestimate people's own enthusiasm for fighting. A lifetime of peaceful toil is immiserating to many, and toil in the service economic competition is destructive of liberty and leisure.
- MomoXenosaga 4y agoWW2 without nukes already made the entire European continent destitute. Thanks to Hitler the US could take over as a superpower.