5 ms·

The answer to this is sports. War is competition through violence. When you remove the violence you get peaceful competition. It satisfies the tribal urge to fi

The answer to this is sports. War is competition through violence. When you remove the violence you get peaceful competition. It satisfies the tribal urge to fight things different than you, but also encourages healthy behaviors. Respect for your opponent. Accepting loss. Recognizing your weaknesses and working to improve them.

varjag 4y ago
Nope, usually you get the cult of war and cult of sports together as a bundle.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- warent 4y ago
  Do people regularly mass murder each other over sports? Because that's the stakes we're talking about here in context. Brawling and screaming over a sport is much preferred to bombing and poisoning.
  - widdershins 4y ago
    No (though it does happen, see Constantinople's chariot teams). But expansionist and militaristic societies are often obsessed with sport, for example imperial Britain, Germany at the 1936 Olympics, and arguably the modern US.
    - rhizome31 4y ago
      Not to mention Ancient Greece. Sport as a substitute for war is a joke.
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    Both sports and war leverage the same dynamics, just as individual athleticism improves one's chances in a fight. Neither are ends in themselves.
pohl 4y ago
I'm with you in the abstract, but where I live there's toxic culture around sports that made it unpalatable for me as a kid. Back then what turned me off was belligerent parents on the sidelines yelling at the children, but the symptoms actually go way beyond that one little thing. (Conflating excellence with dominance is another example.)
- Dudeman112 4y ago
  >toxic culture around sports I was rather fond of practicing team sports as a kid, but I found the culture off putting for the same reasons Some people just can't behave, adults weren't even much better than your regular kid
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    > adults weren't even much better than your regular kid If life has taught me anything, it's that the notion of adults being emotional mature is a joke. I've seen numerous grown people suddenly turn into a character from Mean Girls instantly after a petty slight.
- Retric 4y ago
  I have noticed team sports tend to be vastly more toxic than solo sports. Climbing for example has a wildly different atmosphere. Just listen to the crowd in this or read the YouTube comments, people are supportive when several women have disappointing results. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfhGW6Bwyks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfhGW6Bwyks People will complain about the route setting or camerawork not the athletes, that’s a shocking amount of empathy IMO.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Funny enough full cobtact sports are somewhat similar. Sure, you actively fight and beat each other in the ring or on tha mats, but outside ofbit things are surprisingly civil. Of ciurse over aggressive exceptions proof that rule.
  - bobochan 4y ago
HPsquared 4y ago
Indeed, many sports serve as a way of developing and competing on "war skills": throwing, running, strength, coordinated maneuvers as a group, etc. All of which are useful in fighting, and a way of establishing a male hierarchy without fighting.
notch656a 4y ago
There may have been some genetic selection here. Societies without those who want to defend the tribe with violence, ultimately succumb to the violence of other societies that perpetuate that violence. Prisoner's dilemma means universal instinct of pacifism is a difficult steady-state to hold.
- maxwell 4y ago
  "Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist." -George Orwell https://reason.com/2014/06/18/why-selectively-quoting-orwells-objectiv https://reason.com/2014/06/18/why-selectively-quoting-orwell...
zppln 4y ago
I've always thought of Wall Street and what goes on there to be our substitute for war.
- scottyah 4y ago
  Big Law too
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    True for both, and these are actually unhealthy outlets because it means everyone essentially lives under sanctions and oppression while norms fray altogether.
Ansil849 4y ago
> The answer to this is sports. War is competition through violence. Absolutely not. Sports is competition through violence, as well. Watch a game of American football, or ice hockey, or basketball for that matter and be able to say otherwise with a straight face. The answer is cooperative, not competitive, activities.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > Absolutely not. Sports is competition through violence, as well. Watch a game of American football, or ice hockey And golf, the worst one of them all! Also horse riding, Javalin throwing, etc. Mixed bag
- chriscappuccio 4y ago
  For people wired for competition, that's no answer.
  - germinalphrase 4y ago
    Aldous Huxley’s perspective was that competition is driven by the desire to dominate. We can play games - like wrestling or war - that cause us to dominate other people. Or, we can play games - like rock climbing - that cause us to dominate ourselves.
- alar44 4y ago
  Calling football or hockey "violence" dilutes the meaning of the word. May as well call a high five violence.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    I've seen plenty of people rejoice at the injuries of another team's players
    - hirvi74 4y ago
      I assume the OP is completely unaware of "head hunting" in professional sports. An awful practice still subtly used today. Story Time: I play beer league/pick-up hockey as an adult, and we once had a suspected thief that was stealing from others in the locker rooms during pick-up games. It was believed said thief would get dressed with everyone, and would then "accidentally forget something" before his shift was up, and he would then return to the locker rooms when the rooms were unattended and proceed to shift through people's belongings. After some time and some mob mentality, people managed to figure out who the thief was. I heard numerous instances of all the various plots and methods other players were working on to ensure this guy would never be able to play again due to an unfortunate accident (i.e. premeditated and intentional permanent or long-term injuries). Thankfully, the police got ahold of the thief before any of the psychopaths managed to ruin the life of the thief and their own lives. I am also thankful that I was a goalie, so that I was never encouraged to participate in such barbarianism. I value the safety of another person more than a wallet full of replaceable items. Still, there have been instances where police have been called due to unruly players and/or unruly parents of children players, refs being assaulted by players/parents, etc..
Xeronate 4y ago
Sports are better, but I think encouraging competition and tribal urges are a waste of time in general. Better to encourage collaboration and self expression.
- afarrell 4y ago
  You need some amount of brotherly conflict and competition in order to have healthy collaboration. Otherwise, you just get the pretense of agreement and a slow slouch into frustration and resentment.
  - Xeronate 4y ago
    Disagree that sports are a form of brotherly conflict. Maybe within the same team but definitely not considering the win/loss dynamic between teams. You can approach disagreements with the idea that both people are working together to make the best product and are are disagreeing with the same goal in kind; a different type of argument than the one opposing teams are engaged in.
    - Xeronate 4y ago
      Sorry I wrote this on my phone at the gym and should have proofread better.

varjag 4y ago

Nope, usually you get the cult of war and cult of sports together as a bundle.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
warent 4y ago
Do people regularly mass murder each other over sports? Because that's the stakes we're talking about here in context. Brawling and screaming over a sport is much preferred to bombing and poisoning.
- widdershins 4y ago
  No (though it does happen, see Constantinople's chariot teams). But expansionist and militaristic societies are often obsessed with sport, for example imperial Britain, Germany at the 1936 Olympics, and arguably the modern US.
  - rhizome31 4y ago
    Not to mention Ancient Greece. Sport as a substitute for war is a joke.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Both sports and war leverage the same dynamics, just as individual athleticism improves one's chances in a fight. Neither are ends in themselves.

pohl 4y ago

I'm with you in the abstract, but where I live there's toxic culture around sports that made it unpalatable for me as a kid. Back then what turned me off was belligerent parents on the sidelines yelling at the children, but the symptoms actually go way beyond that one little thing. (Conflating excellence with dominance is another example.)

Dudeman112 4y ago
>toxic culture around sports I was rather fond of practicing team sports as a kid, but I found the culture off putting for the same reasons Some people just can't behave, adults weren't even much better than your regular kid
- the_only_law 4y ago
  > adults weren't even much better than your regular kid If life has taught me anything, it's that the notion of adults being emotional mature is a joke. I've seen numerous grown people suddenly turn into a character from Mean Girls instantly after a petty slight.
Retric 4y ago
I have noticed team sports tend to be vastly more toxic than solo sports. Climbing for example has a wildly different atmosphere. Just listen to the crowd in this or read the YouTube comments, people are supportive when several women have disappointing results. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfhGW6Bwyks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfhGW6Bwyks People will complain about the route setting or camerawork not the athletes, that’s a shocking amount of empathy IMO.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Funny enough full cobtact sports are somewhat similar. Sure, you actively fight and beat each other in the ring or on tha mats, but outside ofbit things are surprisingly civil. Of ciurse over aggressive exceptions proof that rule.
- bobochan 4y ago

HPsquared 4y ago

Indeed, many sports serve as a way of developing and competing on "war skills": throwing, running, strength, coordinated maneuvers as a group, etc. All of which are useful in fighting, and a way of establishing a male hierarchy without fighting.

notch656a 4y ago

There may have been some genetic selection here. Societies without those who want to defend the tribe with violence, ultimately succumb to the violence of other societies that perpetuate that violence. Prisoner's dilemma means universal instinct of pacifism is a difficult steady-state to hold.

maxwell 4y ago
"Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist." -George Orwell https://reason.com/2014/06/18/why-selectively-quoting-orwells-objectiv https://reason.com/2014/06/18/why-selectively-quoting-orwell...

zppln 4y ago

I've always thought of Wall Street and what goes on there to be our substitute for war.

scottyah 4y ago
Big Law too
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  True for both, and these are actually unhealthy outlets because it means everyone essentially lives under sanctions and oppression while norms fray altogether.

Ansil849 4y ago

> The answer to this is sports. War is competition through violence. Absolutely not. Sports is competition through violence, as well. Watch a game of American football, or ice hockey, or basketball for that matter and be able to say otherwise with a straight face. The answer is cooperative, not competitive, activities.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> Absolutely not. Sports is competition through violence, as well. Watch a game of American football, or ice hockey And golf, the worst one of them all! Also horse riding, Javalin throwing, etc. Mixed bag
chriscappuccio 4y ago
For people wired for competition, that's no answer.
- germinalphrase 4y ago
  Aldous Huxley’s perspective was that competition is driven by the desire to dominate. We can play games - like wrestling or war - that cause us to dominate other people. Or, we can play games - like rock climbing - that cause us to dominate ourselves.
alar44 4y ago
Calling football or hockey "violence" dilutes the meaning of the word. May as well call a high five violence.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  I've seen plenty of people rejoice at the injuries of another team's players
  - hirvi74 4y ago
    I assume the OP is completely unaware of "head hunting" in professional sports. An awful practice still subtly used today. Story Time: I play beer league/pick-up hockey as an adult, and we once had a suspected thief that was stealing from others in the locker rooms during pick-up games. It was believed said thief would get dressed with everyone, and would then "accidentally forget something" before his shift was up, and he would then return to the locker rooms when the rooms were unattended and proceed to shift through people's belongings. After some time and some mob mentality, people managed to figure out who the thief was. I heard numerous instances of all the various plots and methods other players were working on to ensure this guy would never be able to play again due to an unfortunate accident (i.e. premeditated and intentional permanent or long-term injuries). Thankfully, the police got ahold of the thief before any of the psychopaths managed to ruin the life of the thief and their own lives. I am also thankful that I was a goalie, so that I was never encouraged to participate in such barbarianism. I value the safety of another person more than a wallet full of replaceable items. Still, there have been instances where police have been called due to unruly players and/or unruly parents of children players, refs being assaulted by players/parents, etc..

Xeronate 4y ago

Sports are better, but I think encouraging competition and tribal urges are a waste of time in general. Better to encourage collaboration and self expression.

afarrell 4y ago
You need some amount of brotherly conflict and competition in order to have healthy collaboration. Otherwise, you just get the pretense of agreement and a slow slouch into frustration and resentment.
- Xeronate 4y ago
  Disagree that sports are a form of brotherly conflict. Maybe within the same team but definitely not considering the win/loss dynamic between teams. You can approach disagreements with the idea that both people are working together to make the best product and are are disagreeing with the same goal in kind; a different type of argument than the one opposing teams are engaged in.
  - Xeronate 4y ago
    Sorry I wrote this on my phone at the gym and should have proofread better.