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Eh, war is simply fun. It’s appealing to males in particular, and our testosterone tends to lock in the intoxication. There’s a reason that Battlefield is one o

Eh, war is simply fun. It’s appealing to males in particular, and our testosterone tends to lock in the intoxication. There’s a reason that Battlefield is one of the most successful gaming franchises of all time, and that it’s very hard to find any videogame that doesn’t involve some kind of warfare. (There are dozens of wonderful counter examples: Minecraft, celeste, undertale, sim city, stardew valley. But for every one of those, there are dozens of Halo wannabes, and even Quake and Doom were one-man wars against demons.)

axiomsEnd 4y ago
But Battlefield is not war, it's a simulation of war. It lacks real stakes, extensive physical activity, death and basically everything that make war a war.
landryraccoon 4y ago
> Eh, war is simply fun. Well an idealized version of war that’s designed to glorify it could be fun. Is actual war fun? Is the Ukraine war fun? I doubt it’s fun for any of the participants. It’s not fun for Ukrainian soldiers, it’s not fun for Russian soldiers, and it’s not fun for Russian or Ukrainian civilians. Maybe it’s fun for some onlookers that like to cheer and spectate, but I would argue that speaks more to the nature of the spectators than to the nature of war.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Eh it is fun to an extent. When I fought with the YPG I saw a lot of Kurds jumping with exuberance cheering at the enemy "he tried to shoot me" and then joyfully shooting back. Many wars are mostly intense boredom, punctuated by occasional bouts of terror or joy. Also there's a weird sort of release from the typical responsibilities of life -- _all_ you have to do is fight (which as fucked up as it sounds, can be more simple than worrying about the next side hustle / the wife / the kids). If you're on a rear-guard type of situation it's mostly drinking chai and smoking cigarettes.
  - deleted 4y ago
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- psi75 4y ago
  > Is actual war fun? Is the Ukraine war fun? I doubt it’s fun for any of the participants. It’s not fun for Ukrainian soldiers, it’s not fun for Russian soldiers, and it’s not fun for Russian or Ukrainian civilians. War seems to rewrite the brain. People are miserable and bored most of the time, are terrified while in combat, and come back with psychological issues we're still just beginning to understand. It's hell. And yet, people do get addicted to the mayhem and the rush. The mercenary life is attractive to a lot of people. There's still a lot being debated here, but one of the theories about PTSD is that much of the damage is done (or, at least, is made permanent) when people return to civilian life. Having been exposed to life-or-death situations, they find daily life to be low-stakes and artificial; the time in which they were most alive as in combat (even if they hated the experience and what it did to them). Still, I agree that actual war is not at all "fun".
  - deleted 4y ago
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- inglor_cz 4y ago
  It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee There definitely seem to be combatants that enjoy at least some aspects of war. If you look at the historical military literature, including poetry, it is not all just negative. It is true that with increasing industrialization of war during the last 150 years, the overall tenor has changed.
  - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
    Look how they re-enact the civil war. Nobody wants the historical truth of dying from cholera in a Confederate stockade or burning down farms in Georgia with crying families in the background. Humans are really good at cognitive dissonance.
  - 8jef 4y ago
    War is a way for mindless and aggressive men to do whatever they really crave (which is escaping from a state of victimhood), without much justification and little immediate consequences to themselves, mostly under cover of patriotism. To kill and rape for fun and pleasure, and hopefully die fast, absolutely ecstatic. To such men, please note: life never really ends, and you and your offspring gets eternally impacted by all miserable and soulless destruction of life's beauty you may have caused, inflicting more hardship and perpetuating novel state of misery upon flocks of others.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      War is a terrible waste. On the other hand, an able bodied man not willing to use destructive faculties to defend young and old against perpetrators of violence is as irrational as the able bodied man who refuses to use constructive faculties to provide necessities of life to same.
      - 8jef 4y ago
        Defensive action is for the most part formidable and magnificent. The stuff that builds and creates heroism, myths and legends. Never miserable or soulless, unless it goes beyond its original purpose. Every reality has at least two versions of it, or more.
- scarier 4y ago
  Experiences in war vary greatly, and feelings about them are complicated and conflicted. I've met many people who genuinely seemed to enjoy it. This article nails it: https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a28718/why-men-love-war/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a28718/why-men-lo...
  - notch656a 4y ago
    "There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter." --Hemingway
    - landryraccoon 4y ago
      That doesn't sound like fun to me. That sounds more like a nightmarish psychosis.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    Strong or weak, in the long run all of them break down. All, that is to say, of those who are initially sane. For, ironically enough, the only people who can hold up indefinitely under the stress of modern war are psychotics. Individual insanity is immune to the consequences of collective insanity
- ThrowawayR2 4y ago
  There's a video floating around of Ukrainian soldiers managing the unusual feat of destroying a helicopter (and obviously its pilot) using a Stugna-P anti-tank guided missile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT8Um69fbHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT8Um69fbHA Fun might not be the right word for it but you can't tell me that the cheer from the soldiers when the missile struck home wasn't born of positive emotion, even in the midst of the hell of war.
  - jgwil2 4y ago
    Yes, victory is a great thrill. Especially, I'm sure, a rare victory against a powerful enemy that has invaded your homeland. That doesn't mean that in the aggregate war is great fun.
zbrozek 4y ago
Outer Wilds! I just played it on the basis of a recommendation in an earlier HN thread and loved it.
whatshisface 4y ago
>Eh, war is simply fun. It’s appealing to males in particular, and our testosterone tends to lock in the intoxication. There’s a reason that Battlefield is one of the most successful gaming franchises of all time, and that it’s very hard to find any videogame that doesn’t involve some kind of warfare. I think there is an argument to be made that Battlefield doesn't involve any warfare.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    You can't have an evo psych narrative where testosterone makes men "love warfare" and then point to a game that's nothing like actual warfare as evidence. Edit: Your reply is dead so I can't reply to it, but you're heading in the right direction to observe that the behaviors people actually seem to have evolved to prefer include those such as eating, resting and listening to stories.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
MichaelCollins 4y ago
Even minecraft has combat in the default game mode. No guns, but it does have swords, axes, arrows, and numerous kinds of explosives. Obviously it's better than Grand Theft Auto, but it definitely falls short of pure pacifism.
zozbot234 4y ago
War is plenty of fun as long as nobody gets hurt - but that's kind of tautological. Real wars are no fun, and that's what pacifists argue against.
deleted 4y ago
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nazka 4y ago
Sometimes it's a little too much. And it starts to be a little dumb. One time on an Assassin's Creed I was like wow why kill that guy?? It wasn't even for the part to gather info. That was so unnecessary (even for the story itself). Can I just talk to him and persuade him first or something?
8jef 4y ago
> There are dozens of wonderful counter examples: Minecraft ... Younger boy of mine spent years fighting and smashing and destroying other avatars /players in Minecraft, not so interested in _building_ anything. One's experience may vary.
watwut 4y ago
None of the things you mentioned is like war, like not at all. They are fantasies designed to be as pleasant as possible.
Coolerbythelake 4y ago
I'm fairly certain you haven't been involved in a war if you make a statement like "it's fun"!! Or at least you've never had to kill someone !!
claudiawerner 4y ago
>Eh, war is simply fun. It’s appealing to males in particular, and our testosterone tends to lock in the intoxication. There’s a reason that Battlefield is one of the most successful gaming franchises of all time This seems like it's essentializing psychology into core biological elements (with a shaky, uncited relationship to evolutionary psychology) without question. When statements are made this way, don't you think it closes off possible avenues for research beyond the bare facts of war and competition in future societies, at least without genetic modification? I think questions like these should be left open rather than dismissed as "war is fun, testosterone".

axiomsEnd 4y ago

But Battlefield is not war, it's a simulation of war. It lacks real stakes, extensive physical activity, death and basically everything that make war a war.

landryraccoon 4y ago

> Eh, war is simply fun. Well an idealized version of war that’s designed to glorify it could be fun. Is actual war fun? Is the Ukraine war fun? I doubt it’s fun for any of the participants. It’s not fun for Ukrainian soldiers, it’s not fun for Russian soldiers, and it’s not fun for Russian or Ukrainian civilians. Maybe it’s fun for some onlookers that like to cheer and spectate, but I would argue that speaks more to the nature of the spectators than to the nature of war.

notch656a 4y ago
Eh it is fun to an extent. When I fought with the YPG I saw a lot of Kurds jumping with exuberance cheering at the enemy "he tried to shoot me" and then joyfully shooting back. Many wars are mostly intense boredom, punctuated by occasional bouts of terror or joy. Also there's a weird sort of release from the typical responsibilities of life -- _all_ you have to do is fight (which as fucked up as it sounds, can be more simple than worrying about the next side hustle / the wife / the kids). If you're on a rear-guard type of situation it's mostly drinking chai and smoking cigarettes.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
psi75 4y ago
> Is actual war fun? Is the Ukraine war fun? I doubt it’s fun for any of the participants. It’s not fun for Ukrainian soldiers, it’s not fun for Russian soldiers, and it’s not fun for Russian or Ukrainian civilians. War seems to rewrite the brain. People are miserable and bored most of the time, are terrified while in combat, and come back with psychological issues we're still just beginning to understand. It's hell. And yet, people do get addicted to the mayhem and the rush. The mercenary life is attractive to a lot of people. There's still a lot being debated here, but one of the theories about PTSD is that much of the damage is done (or, at least, is made permanent) when people return to civilian life. Having been exposed to life-or-death situations, they find daily life to be low-stakes and artificial; the time in which they were most alive as in combat (even if they hated the experience and what it did to them). Still, I agree that actual war is not at all "fun".
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
inglor_cz 4y ago
It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee There definitely seem to be combatants that enjoy at least some aspects of war. If you look at the historical military literature, including poetry, it is not all just negative. It is true that with increasing industrialization of war during the last 150 years, the overall tenor has changed.
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  Look how they re-enact the civil war. Nobody wants the historical truth of dying from cholera in a Confederate stockade or burning down farms in Georgia with crying families in the background. Humans are really good at cognitive dissonance.
- 8jef 4y ago
  War is a way for mindless and aggressive men to do whatever they really crave (which is escaping from a state of victimhood), without much justification and little immediate consequences to themselves, mostly under cover of patriotism. To kill and rape for fun and pleasure, and hopefully die fast, absolutely ecstatic. To such men, please note: life never really ends, and you and your offspring gets eternally impacted by all miserable and soulless destruction of life's beauty you may have caused, inflicting more hardship and perpetuating novel state of misery upon flocks of others.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    War is a terrible waste. On the other hand, an able bodied man not willing to use destructive faculties to defend young and old against perpetrators of violence is as irrational as the able bodied man who refuses to use constructive faculties to provide necessities of life to same.
    - 8jef 4y ago
      Defensive action is for the most part formidable and magnificent. The stuff that builds and creates heroism, myths and legends. Never miserable or soulless, unless it goes beyond its original purpose. Every reality has at least two versions of it, or more.
scarier 4y ago
Experiences in war vary greatly, and feelings about them are complicated and conflicted. I've met many people who genuinely seemed to enjoy it. This article nails it: https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a28718/why-men-love-war/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a28718/why-men-lo...
- notch656a 4y ago
  "There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter." --Hemingway
  - landryraccoon 4y ago
    That doesn't sound like fun to me. That sounds more like a nightmarish psychosis.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Strong or weak, in the long run all of them break down. All, that is to say, of those who are initially sane. For, ironically enough, the only people who can hold up indefinitely under the stress of modern war are psychotics. Individual insanity is immune to the consequences of collective insanity
ThrowawayR2 4y ago
There's a video floating around of Ukrainian soldiers managing the unusual feat of destroying a helicopter (and obviously its pilot) using a Stugna-P anti-tank guided missile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT8Um69fbHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT8Um69fbHA Fun might not be the right word for it but you can't tell me that the cheer from the soldiers when the missile struck home wasn't born of positive emotion, even in the midst of the hell of war.
- jgwil2 4y ago
  Yes, victory is a great thrill. Especially, I'm sure, a rare victory against a powerful enemy that has invaded your homeland. That doesn't mean that in the aggregate war is great fun.

zbrozek 4y ago

Outer Wilds! I just played it on the basis of a recommendation in an earlier HN thread and loved it.

whatshisface 4y ago

>Eh, war is simply fun. It’s appealing to males in particular, and our testosterone tends to lock in the intoxication. There’s a reason that Battlefield is one of the most successful gaming franchises of all time, and that it’s very hard to find any videogame that doesn’t involve some kind of warfare. I think there is an argument to be made that Battlefield doesn't involve any warfare.

MichaelCollins 4y ago
- whatshisface 4y ago
  You can't have an evo psych narrative where testosterone makes men "love warfare" and then point to a game that's nothing like actual warfare as evidence. Edit: Your reply is dead so I can't reply to it, but you're heading in the right direction to observe that the behaviors people actually seem to have evolved to prefer include those such as eating, resting and listening to stories.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago

MichaelCollins 4y ago

Even minecraft has combat in the default game mode. No guns, but it does have swords, axes, arrows, and numerous kinds of explosives. Obviously it's better than Grand Theft Auto, but it definitely falls short of pure pacifism.

zozbot234 4y ago

War is plenty of fun as long as nobody gets hurt - but that's kind of tautological. Real wars are no fun, and that's what pacifists argue against.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nazka 4y ago

Sometimes it's a little too much. And it starts to be a little dumb. One time on an Assassin's Creed I was like wow why kill that guy?? It wasn't even for the part to gather info. That was so unnecessary (even for the story itself). Can I just talk to him and persuade him first or something?

8jef 4y ago

> There are dozens of wonderful counter examples: Minecraft ... Younger boy of mine spent years fighting and smashing and destroying other avatars /players in Minecraft, not so interested in _building_ anything. One's experience may vary.

watwut 4y ago

None of the things you mentioned is like war, like not at all. They are fantasies designed to be as pleasant as possible.

Coolerbythelake 4y ago

I'm fairly certain you haven't been involved in a war if you make a statement like "it's fun"!! Or at least you've never had to kill someone !!

claudiawerner 4y ago

>Eh, war is simply fun. It’s appealing to males in particular, and our testosterone tends to lock in the intoxication. There’s a reason that Battlefield is one of the most successful gaming franchises of all time This seems like it's essentializing psychology into core biological elements (with a shaky, uncited relationship to evolutionary psychology) without question. When statements are made this way, don't you think it closes off possible avenues for research beyond the bare facts of war and competition in future societies, at least without genetic modification? I think questions like these should be left open rather than dismissed as "war is fun, testosterone".