4 ms·

You kind of have a baby/bathwater situation, eh? You'd throw the baby out just because the bathwater has a lot of evangelists you personally find unpleasant to

You kind of have a baby/bathwater situation, eh? You'd throw the baby out just because the bathwater has a lot of evangelists you personally find unpleasant to communicate with. Doesn't seem to matter that they're fighting for _your rights_ just that you don't like them. I guess your post directly leads to OP's post in that sense, because my first thought after reading yours was, "you reap what you sow" which is more or less what OP wrote. So maybe we'd be a hell of a lot better off without your attitude?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nobodyandproud 4y ago
What OP is saying is that the brilliant people churning ideas and insights within FSF, are terrible at advocating for it. I agree. As an example: FSF points about free (as in liberty) hardware was years ahead of its time; yet it wasn’t taken very seriously until MS push for UEFI. The work of getting the message out on the important points is better left to others.
- fartcannon 4y ago
  Yes, thank you for elaborating, but I did understand their point. The issue is that OP hasn't thought far enough ahead (or doesn't care) and as a result, as GP and myself have now said, a situation where you reap what you sow occurs. Let me elaborate now: The people who are willing to get the message out about FSF ideals are currently the people who are doing it. So unless OP or yourself can provide the means to do that better than what is being done now, what you get is what there is right now. So then, if at that point, you hear about a good idea (like what the FSF fights for) but turn away from it (throwing out the baby) because you don't like the source of that idea, then, as was already said, you reap what you sow.
  - thallamus2 4y ago
    Except they aren’t doing it. What we have to show for decades of FSF activism is enough of a rejection of GPL that other licenses filled the gap, and that gap basically created cloud computing by letting the very companies RMS detests offshore their engineering to the detesters without any risk. So in one interpretation, the ideal software model but maybe not the ideal license envisioned by FSF is a major component of the transfer/takeback of computing as a concept from individual to corporation (and then bigger corporation) and the creation of pan-surveillance culture. Which is incredibly ironic given the ideals of the FLOSS community. That’s what we’re reaping, in my estimation. Vexing yourself with the legal provenance of the BIOS in your laptop ignores all that, and this state of computing been slowly growing in that technofetish blind spot for about thirty years. And now the community with said, massive blind spot is saying “see what you reaped by not listening to us?” Come on. We did. It’s a safe bet I’ve been thinking about this longer than you’ve been in the job market, and I’m not saying that to tout my experience, but it’s equally frustrating to level some criticism at the FLOSS world and get accused of shortsighted/myopia/blah blah which was exactly my bone to pick with OP. That’s the only argument path. FLOSS is perfect, and if you disagree, you just don’t see it. That’s not a society. That’s a belief. I’m not saying that’s the fairest take. (Please give me a better one that isn’t “people just don’t listen,” and I may be convinced.) Maybe if everything Posix were GPL we wouldn’t be offshoring our computing responsibilities to companies who built platforms with these tools, I don’t know. This has been the background noise of my entire adult life, though, and yeah, I’ve had enough reaping of the current state of affairs. I assure you wholeheartedly that I care. I just disagree with you. Stop confusing the two.
    - fartcannon 4y ago
      They ARE doing it, you just don't think it's effective. If you can do better, do it! If you can't, or don't want to, well, ... we reap what we sow. There's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nobodyandproud 4y ago

What OP is saying is that the brilliant people churning ideas and insights within FSF, are terrible at advocating for it. I agree. As an example: FSF points about free (as in liberty) hardware was years ahead of its time; yet it wasn’t taken very seriously until MS push for UEFI. The work of getting the message out on the important points is better left to others.

fartcannon 4y ago
Yes, thank you for elaborating, but I did understand their point. The issue is that OP hasn't thought far enough ahead (or doesn't care) and as a result, as GP and myself have now said, a situation where you reap what you sow occurs. Let me elaborate now: The people who are willing to get the message out about FSF ideals are currently the people who are doing it. So unless OP or yourself can provide the means to do that better than what is being done now, what you get is what there is right now. So then, if at that point, you hear about a good idea (like what the FSF fights for) but turn away from it (throwing out the baby) because you don't like the source of that idea, then, as was already said, you reap what you sow.
- thallamus2 4y ago
  Except they aren’t doing it. What we have to show for decades of FSF activism is enough of a rejection of GPL that other licenses filled the gap, and that gap basically created cloud computing by letting the very companies RMS detests offshore their engineering to the detesters without any risk. So in one interpretation, the ideal software model but maybe not the ideal license envisioned by FSF is a major component of the transfer/takeback of computing as a concept from individual to corporation (and then bigger corporation) and the creation of pan-surveillance culture. Which is incredibly ironic given the ideals of the FLOSS community. That’s what we’re reaping, in my estimation. Vexing yourself with the legal provenance of the BIOS in your laptop ignores all that, and this state of computing been slowly growing in that technofetish blind spot for about thirty years. And now the community with said, massive blind spot is saying “see what you reaped by not listening to us?” Come on. We did. It’s a safe bet I’ve been thinking about this longer than you’ve been in the job market, and I’m not saying that to tout my experience, but it’s equally frustrating to level some criticism at the FLOSS world and get accused of shortsighted/myopia/blah blah which was exactly my bone to pick with OP. That’s the only argument path. FLOSS is perfect, and if you disagree, you just don’t see it. That’s not a society. That’s a belief. I’m not saying that’s the fairest take. (Please give me a better one that isn’t “people just don’t listen,” and I may be convinced.) Maybe if everything Posix were GPL we wouldn’t be offshoring our computing responsibilities to companies who built platforms with these tools, I don’t know. This has been the background noise of my entire adult life, though, and yeah, I’ve had enough reaping of the current state of affairs. I assure you wholeheartedly that I care. I just disagree with you. Stop confusing the two.
  - fartcannon 4y ago
    They ARE doing it, you just don't think it's effective. If you can do better, do it! If you can't, or don't want to, well, ... we reap what we sow. There's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.