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Ask HN: How to deal with children's online habits?

• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• killjoywashere 4y ago
  My wife is a pediatric occupational therapist who works with children in Silicon Valley, including the some of the uberwealthy (Los Altos Hills, Portola Valley ranch wealthy, "would you just come with us on the jet this week" wealthy). She has also worked in pre- and post Katrina New Orleans, college towns, east coast, west coast. tropical islands. She's been around, seen kids at the absolute top and some versions of the very bottom (families living in shipping containers). I'm a physician informaticist. our kids are now 17 and 20. One is going to UCLA, the other is going to run out math at the local community college before he graduates high school. I generally agree with the others who say if you can solve child-rearing, please let me know, we're going to be rich. That said, the best advice I can offer is exemplify the adults you wish them to become. To the extent possible, raise children through benign neglect. That said, screen time is the devil incarnate. You don't want your kids to be the first ones with a phone, or the last, but you should try to be as close as possible to last as you can. The pediatric in-patient psych beds in California were full a decade ago. Californians are now filling all the psych beds in the neighboring states. It seems to hit young teen girls the worst. If you want a peds psych bed and you live in California, start looking at Denver or Omaha. I personally know two teen girls who are seeing psychiatrists or psychologists. Their younger brothers tend to follow. And two other girls in long term, out-of-state psych wards. It's dose dependent. BEFORE they have devices (which, again, you should avoid like the plague) get Google WiFi and time-limit their access. If you own a TV, throw it away now. My wife threw ours out in 2007. Best decision ever. We eventually bought a projector, but it only works if it's dark enough ... Which is not much of the day. Get a lockbox. Put it at the front door. Sometimes, shit's gonna get real and you'll need rules like "Devices go in the box when you get home", "Devices go in the box until homework is done", or "Devices go in the box and hour before bed". You should also have them reflect, even journal, on the experience so they concretely incorporate the knowledge of how they feel with and without the phone. Once they are in either middle school or high school, encourage them to take notes in bound notebooks. My daughter prefers spiral college rule 8x11, my son prefers Leuchtturm A5 color-coded by subject. Tell them you will keep those notebooks for them until they are old enough to store them themselves. Encourage paper books. Buy subscriptions and shun any company that serves ads despite having paid for the subscription. Take long walks. Get a dog. Get two. Take your kids out into the world. A lot. Every weekend. Fuck kids sports. My daughter's gymnastics coach broke the Nasser story. Fuck kids sports. The adults are awful. High school sports are pretty healthy. JV is fine. Kids need a lifelong love of exercise, not ACL repairs in high school (record I've heard is a girl who got 7 ACL repairs before graduating college).
• throwaway2214 4y ago
  i have a daughter(11) * i check her feed (together with her) on youtube/instagram once a week for toxic videos, and teach her how to manipulate her feed; either she modifies the feed or the feed modifies her * i encourage her to pay for the apps/games, for skins, battle passes etc, and if there is 'pay to remove ads' functionality i always pay * i have a good pi-hole setup at home blocking malware/adult sites etc * i allow her to watch 3-4 hours of youtube per day (but long videos, longer than 10 minutes per video) * i allow and encourage her to play video games as much as she wants, but real games, like spiderman on ps4 or fortnite, no lootbox shit * i dont allow tiktok and youtube shorts for more than 10 minutes per day (enough so she links sent by her friends) * apps and purchases are with approval, but for each app she has to tell me how this app is making money out of her, or for each purchase she has to explain how is the thing she is buying valuable to her
  • mixmastamyk 4y ago
    ~4 hours a day? What about homework and fresh air? I like the lessons however.
    • throwaway2214 4y ago
      its school vacation now, and its like 40 degrees outside watching youtube and crunchyroll for 4 hours is not the worst i remember at this age when i was not ouside i could watch cow and chicken marathon for like 8 hours straight :)
• throwaway202207 4y ago
  Two daughters, ages 6 and 9. We use Google Family Link. They have Netflix, no YouTube (or YT Kids, as it can't be trusted). Websites are approve-only. Apps are approve-only and only premium stuff without ads and IAP. They get half hour each a day for fun, and whatever extra they need for homework. It wasn't always like this (apart from the 30m limit). We "trusted" them, and have very open relationships and talk about everything. They talked about the searches they were doing (eg inspiration for things to draw) and always asked before installing anything. But then one day I noticed the older one suddenly exiting YouTube when I enter the room. And she seemed sad. This was over a few days. Bit quieter, sadder, bit more skittish about what she does on her tablet. One night when she was in bed, I took her tablet and loaded up my activity.google.com And oh my dog, I was dumbfounded by what I saw. Videos like "boy with terminal cancer dying in front of your eyes" and worse. Searches for mermaids (initially for art inspiration) which eventually became searches for boobs, which eventually became searches for boy+girl naughty things. (Thank Christ we at least had safe search enabled, but some pencil sketches of really dodgy stuff leaked through.) And this game where you play rock/paper/scissors and the boy/girl slowly undresses (toon, but still). She also left comments on YouTube, stuff like "I love how you draw", but luckily no-one latched onto how old she me be to start grooming her. This happened over the space of about 8 weeks, but it's very insidious, the progressively more risque things that they get exposed to. Fck social networks, and fck their algorithms. Their niece, now 18, suffered all manner of disorders and anorexia over the years after being given free reign, by very loving parents, with very open communication. And here we are thinking we were being safer with our few extra policies. Not anymore. It's full lockdown from now on. They're young enough to have taken the new rules well. They can still watch their fav Netflix shows, and still get to play their favourite games (self-hosted/private Minecraft server, thank you very much), so they're happy. But it's without all the insidious dangers that even well-intentioned parents might miss. We spoke to her very carefully and lovingly about the dodgy stuff she saw, and she said she heard about the rock/paper/scissors game in school (private school in English countryside; this shit can crop up anywhere). The videos came via ads, and suggested content. So, luckily all is well now. We're about to talk to the school about this whole ordeal, and really want to urge everyone to take a closer look at what the little ones get up to.
• lakomen 4y ago
  All I can say is, I grew up in the 80s and that means no internet. I come from a working class family. The neighbor was an architect who had a C64. Because of that I got interested in computers at the age of 8. Age 10 my dad bought me a CPC 464. I learned that BASIC and wrote a graph that displayed a static set of numbers, kind of a stock exchange graph. I had a deal with my dad that he'd pay me if I managed to write this and complete it. He paid. Later I got a C64 because of games. Also the Final Cartridge 1. It had the ability to freeze execution, a memory monitor and assembler editor. I cracked my 1st game at the age of 11. One year later I wrote cracktros and linked them with my cracked games. I also used it to cheat in games. However I never did professional piracy. I only distributed the disks locally among friends. It was really amazing seeing one of my cracktros years later at someone's C64, a guy I never knew. Nowadays the playing field is different. The internet isn't real life. I have never witnessed such hostility in real life that I have on the internet. But it is now part of life. And it's full of junk. But you can't shield your kid from it. It will have to deal with it sooner or later. But... I still had a somewhat normal childhood, exploring nature, building tree houses and such. If your kid spends all its time in front of a screen, it will never experience or learn about the real reality, not the fake interreality. Already the rudeness of the internet is changing real life. Because people get used to be rude because they're sheltered from repercussions on the net, but get used to that behavior in rl. To make it short, I was not supervised or monitored. I had great grades in school without learning. Just listening to what the teachers had to say was enough to make it through school with an American B result in the end, without ever learning for a single test. I would've liked if my parents pushed me a little bit. That B could've been an A if I tried. But I really enjoyed my freedom and when the internet came 1995 I enjoyed the freedom I had there. The internet was something that wasn't on the mainstream people's radar. It was my refugee from real life and its harsh, controlling rules. Over the years it turned into this trashpile that's the complete opposite of what it was. It's now used to spy on you and to monitor you and everyone. What was once a dream of freedom and progress is now a tool for oppression and used to spread nationalism and racism or let's put it like that... reality has caught up with it and made it part of its ecosystem only without the barriers of decent behavior toward each other. But then again it's just a medium. The way I live my life and have lived it in the past 25 years was like a slave, sitting in front of a computer screen writing things in a made up world, because I need to earn money to live or rather to perpetuate this slave existence. I often wonder if I had a child what I would teach it in regards to the internet. Probably that it can be a dangerous place, just like the real world. I would not prohibit its use or have dedicated "screen time". But I would not allow purchases. If they manage to make their own money in it, of course they could spend it any way they want. I would urge them to go outside and play vs spending time in front of the computer. Nowadays you have your computer with you. I would explain why, with every decision I do, so the kid understands why I do what I do and why it should as well. And sometimes I would have to be the authority, because that's life. My dad said once, "I don't want to be your dad, but a friend". That is not what I wanted. I wanted a dad, friends I could always have, but only 1 dad. I think he said that so it was easier for him to accept his role. I'm not good with kids either or other people. When I was younger I hated chit chat or smalltalk. Most jokes were not funny to me. I always admired Mr. Spock for being cold and logical. When things wouldn't go my way instead of having emotional outbursts, like it did when I was younger I would get cold and robot like and express my disagreement that way. So yeah, of course play with the kid if that's what makes you happy, because if you do it only because you think it's good for the kid, then it's superficial and bad for both. In the end it's just another human, so what do you do with other humans? With your child you have more in common than with other humans. It learns from you, copies you, your good and your bad. Whatever you do, be honest. No, never mess with them and their friends. They're theirs friends, their relationships, not yours. Of course if you see something that is not ok, talk about it. In the end you're the parent. Communication is everything. Talk talk talk. Remember when you were young? Spot stressing about it and just go with it.
• themodelplumber 4y ago
  Ah, those are good questions. It really strikes me as a search for nuance and forethought that you're sharing, too. If so, one natural blind spot here is going to be the dichotomy of 1) an abscence of clearly-drawn lines and 2) a tendency to draw lines too firmly, too late or in a poorly calibrated way. It can be helpful to be aware of that, so you can more easily avoid swingy behaviors and positions that feel less authentic or even less loving. One of the transcendant superpowers of nuance is not just that it's deep and considerate of all sorts of factors and outcomes, but that it also helps people understand better where and how to draw lines in given situations. This is really cool and helpful, even if it has to be used kinda faster than people may be aware, and in little prospective doses. So, perhaps one of the best nuanced things you could do to pass along this gift of yours is to share with your children why you draw a line at outright snooping, and ask them what they think about how they use the internet for example (or their money, or...). What you'll be doing here is passing on a subjective perceptual quality factor in your inquiries and personal development, not just a lesson on inappropriate behavior, or whatever. This is pretty huge by itself! Developmental vitamins for your kids, basically. (A lot of what's inappropriate on the internet also has a side that would then naturally feel jarring or somehow off to a kid raised with those vitamins, IMO.) You'll also have a lot of other opportunities to take in relevant hints as your kids continue to develop, so this is more like a set of questions to revisit over time, and you'll likely observe changes to the set of questions. For that reason I would recommend organizing your own approach digitally or on paper, keeping your personoal philosophy and technique in this area working & developing. A danger point in this kind of consideration is the dichotomy of thought: "Do I X, or don't I X," for example. These questions are always begging for some rephrasing or new vocabulary. Sometimes it helps to first define the terms and the problems in depth, and second (mentioned briefly above as well) to involve the children in what is effectively you educating yourself. Do they see it as a problem? How would they phrase it? What does that teach you about how they learn best? What insights might it give you about their gifts? "Aww that's nuthin dad" vs. "That's really scary to think about" can indicate two completely different sets of cognitive gifts at work. Personally I grew up with a parental dichotomy of sorts. I had one snoopy parent and another who was very lax. To me as someone with kind of ridiculously high personal ethical standards, even as a kid, the snoopy parent made things so much worse. I realized that I could be an absolute angel, and that parent would _still_ find something to pin on me anyway. For example when I was 9 years old, they found a trash bag full of very-adult magazines at a construction site a couple blocks from our house, brought the whole huge muddy bag home, and accused me of hiding my stash over there! (Makes me laugh to this day, but it was also extremely hurtful) However, this same parent could spot some things that other people just couldn't see--they had an amazing general perceptual ability even if it was overused when it came to some guessing games close to home. And so they actually intervened in some pretty amazing moments, like when our family doctor was really struggling in life, this parent was one of the only one of his friends to notice the signs and intervened to help him out before things got really bad. Anyway, just some examples of how a parenting gift can also be a huge liability, especially when it turns things into this dichotomy, like "did you or didn't you" vs "hey look, what do you think of this situation, here's why I struggle". Everything we think is so great about ourselves, as parents, our kids have ways of demonstrating is just a fail in other ways. Even or especially if they have the diversity of mind to disagree with us, chances are they have a different set of natural tools, approaches, thought patterns, or other solutions that could also be really effective. I'm assuming you feel like you have adequate access to swaths of professionals who can help you out along the road as well. Good luck.
• FrenchDevRemote 4y ago
  >What fraction of their online time should I sit with them? Unless they're 5 year old and learning the ropes or asking for it, then none >Do I play all video games with them or should they have some of "their own"? If they want to play with you: as much as you want, otherwise none.(I kinda wish I played with my parents honestly, but they never cared) >Do I give them the ability to do online purchases? Physical products? Probably yes, but it should go through you to check that the site is not a scam or shady. Virtual items, crappy lootboxes and predatory subscriptions? Absolutely not. >Do I allow them to use up all of their money even as a mistake, or do I set up a limit? Depends on how much money you have. >Do I limit their "screen time" (hate that term) or will that prevent them from interacting with their friends in the way they would want to? No, I don't see the point. I spent hours doing programming exercises in freaking notebooks because my parents were soo keen on limiting my screen time. Dozens of arguments because they would take away my consoles. Not worth it. Also I'm not really in favor of trying to control what your children do, but block TikTok if it still exists in 5 years, some social medias aren't social medias, they're psychological warfare.
  • chupasaurus 4y ago
    Completely agree on all points, but wanna add my thoughts: About sitting with kids: they'd come to you or at least mention if they found out something interesting anyway. About budgeting: that's a whole course of it's own to be taught. I know only 2 good solutions about screen time: you have to set the upper limit with mandatory things to do and can virtually lower it by presenting activities that would be genuinely more interesting than the online ones.
• intothemild 4y ago
  Here's my thoughts. > - What fraction of their online time should I sit with them? I try to spend any time I'm not doing something like housework or whatever with my kid. But ultimately (and you're going to hear this repeated) I ask her if I can join. I will state "ok I've finished my chores can I come and hang out with you?" She usually says yes. But I make sure to emphasize that I was doing chores as to give context and to also normalise the idea that when you do chores there's no tv or anything else. (music is fine) > - Do I play all video games with them or should they have some of "their own"? I let my daughter drive this... Almost always she wants me to play a multiplayer game with me. But about 20% or more she wants to play something by herself. So I give her that space. > - Do I give them the ability to do online purchases? Yes and No... We have a calendar on the wall, and every night before bed we do a ritual.. if she was a good girl she gets to color in the day green, if she wasn't good, then she colors it in red. If there's less than 5 red days then she can chose something to have... Last month was a pokemon game for her switch. That said... I have setup our online consoles so if she wants to buy something it sends me a message, and I approve it. This never happens, as I do the purchasing. But it's an option you can consider. Finally on our Xbox, Game pass is amazing.. she knows if she sees something in game pass she's free to download it and play.. > - Do I allow them to use up all of their money even as a mistake, or do I set up a limit? Depends on the age of the kid. If they understand the idea of money, you should probably setup goal oriented systems.. so do X and get $Y, it's important for them to learn how to earn money, and the value of money. If they are too young to understand money.. then a behaviour based system such as my red day green day calendar system. > - Do I limit their "screen time" (hate that term) or will that prevent them from interacting with their friends in the way they would want to? No, screen time is a stupid fear a bunch of people have. It's just the next dumb panic. Our grandparents had it when our parents were put in front of the TV. I'm guessing if you go back far enough there was probably panics about kids sitting in front of the radio. Screen time is dumb. However the real issue is what they are doing.. There should be some educational component.... BUT remember that everyone needs downtime.. you cannot expect your kid to go 100% education all the time....think about us at work, we need to browse the web or table tennis or whatever to have a mental break. So do kids.
• guidedlight 4y ago
  I have some pre-teen children that have access to an iPad, Xbox, and an Apple TV. My #1 recommendation is NO YOUTUBE, unless it's for education purposes. I don't have the App installed on any of my kids devices (they can access it via the website, but they don't do that). It's just a cesspool of garbage for kids. Even YouTube Kids is bad. Occasionally, they will complain about not having the YouTube app... but I never took it away, so they aren't missing it. I've loaded up the iPad with fun age appropriate games and activities, that don't require any In-App purchases. If my kids want more apps, then Apple will ask my permission on my iPhone. I use an Ubiquiti Dream Machine as my home router, so I have some basic content filtering and I have some categorisation of the traffic available, but nothing detailed. In terms of video games, my recommendation is have a games console in the living room. They have access to video games, but they can play them where everyone can observe. They can have their own video games, this isn't a problem. Microsoft sends me a family report every week about what games were played, but I don't pay much attention to it. Purchases require parent approval on Xbox too. With a 0.2 and 2 year old, you are somewhat lucky. The ages are close enough that they will play with each other a lot... and screen time won't be too much of an issue until they hit teenage years. Good luck.
  • anibalin 4y ago
    Great tips. Agree with the youtube vision you have. How do you deal with banning youtube all together? It's even on the smart tv menu. It's like playin whack a mole.
    • antics9 4y ago
      What we should be doing as a sort of collective parenting is curating Youtube playlists and categorize them with good, informational, fun and inspiring videos. Then we limit the children's access to that curated material only.
      • MobileVet 4y ago
        How do you limit their access to the curated material?
• kaoD 4y ago
  Other replies already addressed the screen time/hanging out together aspect, so I will comment on being unsupervised. I was a kid on the early-ish internet and I was free to "surf the interwebs" unsupervised. The internet is not the same anymore but I think the general rules still apply. This was a very valuable learning experience for me. Based on my own experience (anecdata, I know) what I found really helped me is grownups around me explaining things clearly and hammering a few facts into my brain: 1. Don't put anything about your real self on the internet (this is increasingly harder due to social media, I'm glad I was just on IRC back in the day). 1a. What goes in the internet will stay in the internet forever. Mind the info you get out there, even if it's supposed to be a private message. Leaks happen. 1b. Encourage them not to use their real name and address, to be pseudonymous at the least (or better, completely anonymous). Help them set up accounts that don't link to their identity (specially email which is the center of your online identity nowadays). 2. Not everyone on the internet is who they say they are. On the internet nobody knows you're a dog. 2a. Be clear on what grooming and pedos are and that they're out there to catch you off-guard. 2b. Show them what spam, scams, malicious sites, phishing, etc. look like and how to prevent damage. 3. No matter what happens or how deep in shit they are they can come to you for help. You won't approve the ugly things they do, but you will forgive them and help them clean up the mess. If in doubt, come get help. The earlier you ask for help, the faster the cleanup. Make all of this real by showing them what could happen. Show them real cases (there's plenty on the news) and the consequences. Show them how easy it is to trick the other side of the conversation. E.g. it was eye-opening for me to watch a friend of my brother pretend he was an MD from a completely different city on the IRC. He was just a horny teen looking to meet women. He often joked about how we were probably chatting with other men lying about their identity too. Once your kids are old enough to understand this then they can go on the internet 100% unsupervised (it was around 8-9 y/o for me but everyone is different). This will take a while given your kids' age, but we all know time flies. Better get them ready before the time comes!
  • feet 4y ago
    I think this is some great advice. Educate rather than restrict I also grew up on the early internet and my sentiments are the same, education and awareness is required but once you know how to interact, things are safer
• senectus1 4y ago
  a few pro tips from me with two kids now 12F and 14M. Subscribe to youtube premium. you do NOT want those adverts on your kids devices. get them an account each (lie about what their ages are), periodically log in to your kids accounts and look at their watch history and deal with as desired. But more importantly subscribe to the channels you feel they should be seeing and unsubscribe what they should not. You can do this quietly for years and they wont have any idea... its helpful to guide their viewing. one issue here is youtube shorts.. its viral trash like tiktok and gods dammit I wish I could ban my daughter from it. there is just no way to block it. Keep computers in the "family area" not in their bedrooms. keep phones and tablets etc in the family area not in bedrooms put a pihole in your home network, its free, and very simple to setup on a rPi or synology nas or pretty much anything. Setup a minecraft server for kids old enough for it. host it yourself and if you can let their friends play on it. Teach them to lie on the internet. they should not be using their real names and addresses. teach them to use a PW manager. Dont allow consoles. Consoles are zombie inducing machines. They want to play games then its computers all the way because computers are multifaceted tools not just dedicated gaming machines. you never know what they will self educate themselves on a computer. on a console they only have one choice... play games. My son has taught himself C# programing in Unity just by watching youtube videos and self exploration. its a marvel to see him accelerate his learning way past what the school can teach him at the moment. He and his sister are also teaching themselves modelling in blender
• fleddr 4y ago
  I have friends with children in the age of 12-14, one of which excessively monitors his son's online behavior. He's shown me results of his monitoring and it pretty much ended the debate. Weird old guys contacting his son, excessive cyberbullying, swearing (fine by me, but still), being drawn to the wrong kind of "friends", hate speech, general addiction and obsession with games and in-game items, the list goes on. Doesn't mean one should intervene all the time, but you should know. I'm not a parent so I don't know at what age you should back off, but I'd say don't do it too early. Your trust is misplaced.
  • thih9 4y ago
    > Your trust is misplaced. This way of approaching the topic feels unhealthy to me. I’d put less focus on “don’t trust your kids”, and more on “make sure your kids have a responsible adult they trust”.
    • fleddr 4y ago
      I didn't mean it that way, but even if taken literally "don't trust your kids" is solid advise. Meaning, you cannot trust on them to navigate an online world full of harm and bad agents. It's not the kid being unhealthy, instead its environment.
    • brutusborn 4y ago
      I interpreted it as meaning: don't place too muxh trust in the internet to be good.
  • sneak 4y ago
    > Weird old guys contacting his son I'm almost 40 and weird old guys contact me on the internet all the time.
    • Majestic121 4y ago
      The difference is that you're not a naive, inexperienced with life and prime target for predators 13 years old boy.
• idontwantthis 4y ago
  #1 Recommendation is no Roblox. It destroys kids. Not to mention, exploration by the game itself, and pedos. Kids who play are unable to do anything else. Maybe your kid will be able to regulate, but I’d guess not. Ask an elementary school teacher about it. #2 is no devices in their own bedroom. Edit: Exploitation not exploration
  • phoronixrly 4y ago
    You mean exploitation, right?
    • idontwantthis 4y ago
      Yes, edited.
• jaclaz 4y ago
  > - Do I give them the ability to do online purchases? > - Do I allow them to use up all of their money even as a mistake, or do I set up a limit? IMHO you should not allow online purchases until a certain age, I would say until 10 years old or so, before that they should ask you for something and you pay for them (if the request is reasonable and anyway if they deserve that). Starting from 5 or 6 years old you will need to teach them about money (its uses, its risks, how it costs time and sweat to have it), which is something extremely difficult in these times of "immaterial" money, in the old times it was easier, with "real" money kids had their own piggy bank that had its own weight that could be felt, when you opened it there was the ritual to count the coins (and possibly a few notes) and see if it was enough to buy the whatever was desired, a 5/6 years old kid will have difficulties in understanding what the balance of an online account is (that those numbers represent actual money). When you will be able to allow them to directly make their own purchases (again after some training with you) you should let them spend what they want to spend within a given total budget, i.e. refill a rechargeable card to (say) 100 dollars and give them access to it. (i.e. they should be free to spend the whole 100 dollars on a single, stupid item or buy 5 items 10 dollars each and keep the remaining 50 in the balance, without any intervention by you). At a given fixed interval (let's say monthly) you credit (still say) 50 dollars more to the card, plus you may credit some more dollars for merit/prizes (if they behaved good, had an exceptional good vote at school, etc.). This way they will (should) learn that money is a finite amount and that - while one is free to use as he/she wishes - it doesn't come out of thin air. The problem might be with gifts from relatives, in my times (I was a kid many years ago) I had some uncles that often slipped a note to me (without telling anything to my parents, it was our little secret), now the kid would probably have to "declare" this extra income to you in order to be able to spend it online (and I doubt - but I may be wrong - that modern uncles will recharge the card online directly).
  • tiluha 4y ago
    I would only allow them to do online purchases themselves once they turn 14 or so. No restrictions what they spend their money on. Reduces the risk of them falling for phishing and scams
• Thorentis 4y ago
  My opinion: children don't need access to the internet, period. There are plenty of ways to let them explore, learn, and play, without giving them any access to the internet. I plan to host an entirely off-line copy of Wikipedia, a bunch of other resources, video games, programming tutorials and libraries. Basically a whole bunch of content that will let them learn about computers and the world, without having access to the internet. The internet is not what is used to be, and the cons severely outweigh any possible pros, especially since the pros can be achieved in other ways.
  • hiptobecubic 4y ago
    Counterpoint, if your child grows up and isn't "internet native" they will be like people who "don't get computers" over the last decade. It's very limiting.
    • 42e6e8c8-f7b8-4 4y ago
      I grew up without access to computers at all until I was 12. I thought I would break my uncle's computer by moving the mouse. I've had a career ranging from telecom and supercomputer chips to mobile, desktop, and web dev. I do not think my lack of exposure to the internet at a young age has limited me.
      • Macha 4y ago
        One person in my CS degree (which started in 2008) had his first time using a computer a few weeks before said degree which was interesting. He managed it fine.
    • wngr 4y ago
      They might not know how to navigate an iPhone or TikTok, but those are not foundational skills.
    • mbg721 4y ago
      Spending time on the Internet doesn't make you understand computers. (It does make you understand that you get a hit of happy-brain-juice when you press the Play button.) My wife teaches college courses and laments that her students, fully in the always-online generation, are helpless in Excel, let alone something like a command line.
• Wertigoyr 4y ago
  They are kids. Kids should be able to have their room door closed but that room is a save space. The internet is not a save place it's like walking in an huge anyounmous city You should not let your kids walk alone in a huge city until certain knowledge is learned. Unfortunately the internet provides even more hurdles than a huge city. I personally would even create a list of things I would teach my kids over a period of month and years. From grooming, pedophiles, scams, password management, spyware etc.
• viraptor 4y ago
  One thing about screen time i haven't seen mentioned yet, is it doesn't have to be the same for everything. I know a parent basically saying: you have a limit on playing games, but not on being creative. So drawing, reading, coding, etc. are not limited. Works for them, but requires some supervision of course.
• sgt 4y ago
  0.2 years old. Congratulations, by the way! Mine is 1.5 years old. He has 2 iPhones, 1 iPad and one MacBook Air. All "inherited" stuff. Luckily he is not really interested in the screens and more of how they feel like physically. I will need to plan how to avoid him spending too much time on devices. Luckily we have a huge yard with lots of outside activities, so that mitigates the risk a little.
• jawns 4y ago
  I have 3 kids between 7 and 12. Both PCs and Chromebooks have parental controls that are okay but not stellar. For PCs, Microsoft lets you set up profiles for your kids where you can specify what apps they can access, and for web access you can either go with a Microsoft-selected whitelist or build your own white/blacklists. We as parents get a weekly activity report showing what sites they spent the most time on and what disallowed sites they tried to access. Obviously, this doesn't align with your privacy objective, but frankly, until my kids are able to keep themselves safe online without parental supervision, the slight infringement on their privacy is a reasonable trade-off.
• mgz 4y ago
  When my kids were small, I was fighting with crazy Youtube videos. Kids started with something innocent and soon were watching sick and disturbing pieces. So I built an app to control their Youtube consumption, which later turned to a cool small business https://itunes.apple.com/app/id1431645198 https://itunes.apple.com/app/id1431645198
  • kaoD 4y ago
    I'm curious, can you elaborate what kind of disturbing pieces popped up?
    • mgz 4y ago
      Giant plastic spiders chasing kids. Momo. Kids behaving silly in front of camera and playing silly games. Kids with masks of superheroes. Something about SCP.
      • hiptobecubic 4y ago
        This was (is) Elsa-gate. It was a whole big thing. Honestly they looked like cartoon shorts that belong on adultswim or something. It's hilarious that they were unironically being watched by kids, but also not.
    • kevinventullo 4y ago
      The relevant search term here is “Elsagate”.
• lr4444lr 4y ago
  As a tech worker with kids, what I see is an all out war being waged on their attention span, motivation to consume, and healthy self-concept with zero regard for their healthy cognitive development. I let my kids watch certain specific shows on YouTube Kids and Netflix, and that's it. About 30 minutes a day, tops, and I am almost always in earshot. Articles that came out in the last 5 years or so about Silicon Valley execs keeping their kids away from the very products that make them rich was a very telling indicator. Much good as the internet has done or my life, I was also blessed to have grown up with a childhood that was not permeated by it during my early formative years. There is some great content out there, but the data is coming down firmly on a negative correlation between screen time and a variety of child health measures. Kids deserve their innocence. When they are older, I will definitely be installing monitoring on my router for their IP traffic.
• contingencies 4y ago
  Every child is different. As parent only you can make the right decision in context. We select and watch film together unless its clearly kids content. Personally I do not encourage spending. Money is a vile thing.
  • 42e6e8c8-f7b8-4 4y ago
    Every child is different, but surely there are patterns and broad commonalities. Surely you should guard your children from heroin and meth and there are some nasty and destructive content on the internet that couldn't possibly be a good choice for any child to consume. When should your kindergartener start consuming snuff pornography? Answer: they a shouldn't, lest we wish a million serialer killers to bloom.
    • contingencies 4y ago
      Every troll is different. Lest none of them starve, feed them all.
      • deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
• thenerdhead 4y ago
  Whatever you do, don’t give them free access to devices or the internet before a certain age. Some parents give their kids iPads as early as two and you can see the behavioral challenges and addiction they struggle with as they get older. All of the answers to your questions are personal to you and your beliefs. The only considerations are to set some ground rules for using these things, moderate how long they can be on them a day, and have a trusting relationship about what they are doing on it by asking them regularly and caring without being too protective. You may benefit from reading “The Self-Driven Child”.
• mensetmanusman 4y ago
  Short answer: we don’t know. This technology is too new on a human sociological timeline. Our strategy is explicit in categorizing digital activity as reading literature, gaming, content consumption, and creation. We will sometimes tell the kids that they are only allowed to play games on the iPad, and if they are in a ‘ I only want to drone out and watch shows‘-Mode, then they will actually choose to do something else in the real world many times. Shows are super useful for road trips, road trips have never been easier. But download good movies to their device to limit choices.
• ksec 4y ago
  One thing I noticed that is often missing in these discussions, sometimes it isn't up to the parents to decide at all. Imagine your 8 - 11 years old daughter's social circle, and the school she is at where her classmate were allowed very little Internet at home or school. Then you wouldn't have a problem enforcing whatever internet rules. Now imagine everyone of her classmate were playing Minecraft, and she is the only one being left out. The point is, if everyone at her school is spending time on god damn stupid Chinese TikTok, then a 10 - 15 minutes Tik Tok for her would be a necessary evil. So far most of the Internet stuff are entertainment only. So stuff like Pop Music, Anime, Viral Videos etc. While not productive, they are harmless. And educating them not to use real names and talk to strangers on the internet seems to have worked so far. And only keep track of topics they looked into. ( At least before the age of 12 or 14 ) Generally speaking the internet is still fairly safe under some guidance. But I have witness teenagers ( son of my close friend ) wondered into politics and culture war at the age of 14+. And it is absolutely destructive. The age where they start doing things without telling you, and going on to Reddit or whatever Internet forums. I dont have a good solution to that. Part of the reason why I have been thinking about Age restricted participation on web forums. You could only reply if you are over the age of X.
  • bjt2n3904 4y ago
    > Tik Tok for her would be a necessary evil. [...] While not productive, they are harmless. I think it is a mistake to view something like viral TikTok videos as "harmless". Wasn't it a few weeks ago that we had a front page article on a child that died during a "pass out challenge"? But you raise a good point. Other parents giving their children unsupervised access to the internet creates a massive problem. A colleague of mine started with a hard and fast "no internet" rule. That absolutely broke when all his son's friends were playing minecraft.
    • alkonaut 4y ago
      I haven’t got the discipline to keep a minimum of screen time and I notice a massive difference between kids that do have very little unsupervised access (i.e many hours of TikTok and YouTube): the screen kids in my non-English speaking country speak fluent English at age 9 or 10. The non screen kids might never catch up. So while I’m sure it’s toxic as hell at least there is some benefit. If I was in an English speaking country I’d set my kids’ TikTok to e.g Spanish ;)
• bitlax 4y ago
  My kids are under 10. 1. No internet access 2. A tablet with a few select apps and no games. 3. A tv with a Raspberry Pi running xbmc with a few videos I've curated. Access to the tablet and tv are limited to certain times, say when we're driving or when my wife's cooking. At some point I'll probably use a PiHole or something like that to give them whitelisted access to a few sites. Not sure where I'll go after that. I don't plan to secretly monitor any conversations but I think I'll stress that I don't consider online and messaging communications to be private and they will be monitored. As for the money, I'd address the goals separately. Have investment accounts which aren't touched and a performance-based allowance which they can spend completely. I think the Dave Ramsey "when the money's gone it's gone" lesson is something that's supremely important to learn early. And if they need some more money they can always make an appeal to the local VC (you).
  • krisoft 4y ago
    > I think I'll stress that I don't consider online and messaging communications to be private and they will be monitored. What a wonderfull dystopia we are building here together. And then we wonder why the average people don’t care about privacy. Perhaps because they were conditioned from a young age to expect none?
    • bitlax 4y ago
      Maybe my wording wasn't precise enough. My kids have a reasonable amount of privacy which is less than the amount of privacy I expect them to be granted by other people. The internet grants access to literally every type of content and image if you try hard enough and there are obvious things I don't want my children exposed to. My idea of a dystopia involves children being exposed to rotten.com, porn, and communicating with pederasts in any way. And honestly it doesn't seem like people are building much of anything, just abdicating responsibility for the most part.
      • alar44 4y ago
        And then when they finally have access they are going to binge like crazy because they haven't learned how to manage that access. It's like the sheltered kids that go off the deep end when they hit college because they have no experience with anything.
• majkinetor 4y ago
  Nobody can help you here. They would get a Nobel prize if they knew how to raise kids. By having kids you accept all risks involved, to both your kids and yourself. There is no silver bullet. As always, going for education is the only thing you can do to reduce risks.
  • lwswl 4y ago
    There is always a silver bullet. There just isn't always a werewolf.
• bjt2n3904 4y ago
  > I have this preconceived notion that I don't want to violate my children's privacy. If you have a preconceived notion that frames these questions in terms of privacy, then you will have a preconceived solution. Why is this discussion being framed in terms of "privacy"? There is a large and growing advocacy for "children's privacy" that I am quite hostile to. The advocacy largely seems to be focused around allowing children to "experiment" and try things for themselves without feeling pressure from their parents to respond in a particular way, or fear repercussions. The stated goal is to let the child become their own person. But by and large, these "experiments" are around topics like drugs, sexuality, politics, and religion -- and at increasingly younger and younger ages. All of these are extremely hot button issues, so I'll choose the last to make an example of. I've worked extensively through my church with our youth ministry. How would you feel if I wanted to have a "private" conversation with your grade school child about their sin, and necessity of repentance? If I responded to your objections by framing you as the unreasonable one, and asking why you wanted to invade your child's privacy? They need to become their own person, and be free to make choices for themselves! You would be right to have a legitimate fear that your child would not be "becoming their own person" (as advertised), but being indoctrinated (or even brainwashed) into a certain way of thinking when their minds are too young to know how to appropriately think about these things independently. As a parent, no one should want to have "private" access to your children -- and even unsupervised access to your children should be completely transparent. Freedom and privacy are important values to teach your children. But this is the privacy that should be taught: there are certain things that you should not expose to the world, and others have no right to ask of you. But the "privacy" that I see being discussed is an inversion of that. "We want privacy with your children, and you cannot violate that privacy!" To close with an example of how I'd frame this issue: YouTube/TikTok wants unfettered access to my children, to sit them infront of a non-stop roll of advertisements, content that has been engineered to be addictive, and has the potential to create harmful feedback loops. To supervise, monitor, and restrict the quantity and quality of what my child watches (or even searches for) is not an invasion of my child's "privacy" or "freedom".
  • closeparen 4y ago
    Children's privacy with respect to freedom to experiment and become their own people would generally mean private interactions with their peers, not corporations or adults.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• jugg1es 4y ago
  I thought I had a good handle on my kids' online activity until COVID hit and suddenly they were home 24/7 for a long time. In order to keep working, I had to give up on a lot of limits on screen time in order to retain my sanity. The rules we have settled on is that they can't use devices until at least 3 or 4pm. This manages to limit their screen time considerably and forces them to use their brains for most of the day. I installed Qustodio on their computers and made sure that everything on their is set with an age limit (including their windows account, youtube, and chrome account). You'd be surprised how much support there is now for limiting content for your kids. I also strongly discourage them from watching youtube videos and prefer them to actually play video games.
• synergy20 4y ago
  My way is to block the internet at study times and only let education-related site be available, block the porn sites at all times for them, with a wifi router. as long as the internet is on for kids, it's really hard for them to get off-hooked without some strict (technical) rules in house, talking with them did not work for us after many trying, wifi is the only thing works when it is needed(e.g. study time, or no-game time, or no-internet time). I have been thinking this self-customized wifi might have a market actually, it worked well for us so far, once the study-mode is on, there is no way they can get around to it, not even with tor-browser or any proxy server or vpn(technically this is the hardest part, but I pulled it off), and they can actually focus on studying(these days many home work requires internet to be on, so you have to manage the sites, and you can not just turn internet off).
  • patrickdavey 4y ago
    ? How did you pull that off? Can they not just set their own DNS so you can't block them finding sites, and then if they're communicating over tor how do you even know what they're looking at? Most impressive!
    • synergy20 4y ago
      it took me 3 years to figure out(as one of my kids kept finding ways to bypass it, who was a game addict, that forced me to improve the design), it's a combination of different approaches to make the whole thing work at low cost, my kids said it is much more 'clean' comparing to their school wifi network, where they can bypass easily with some free VPN software and proxy server, and kids exchange their findings, so campus-network to them is pretty much fully open.
• frogger8 4y ago
  Some may like and some may dislike this solution. Sharing in case automating some of these challenges using smart DNS is useful for your use case. https://github.com/1stOctet/YouWillUnderstandWhenYouAreOlder/ https://github.com/1stOctet/YouWillUnderstandWhenYouAreOlder...
• mecanicox 4y ago
  Never allow a children below 12 access to internet, a not give to they cellphones until the 14 or until they needed, in my experience as father, I give him 4 or 5 hour in videogames or videos in the computer monday-saturday, sunday is for family time, everytime he ask for buy something, I tell him that he must work for obtain that as reward or compensation, not let them take the monitor outside of your range, even in his room my son has the monitor close the wall but in front of the door so I can see what is he doing when I pass to his door, our family policy is that all the rooms are with open doors, is forbiden stay in a closed door, constantly I ask what is he doing in the computer, sometimes he lies but is ok, I not cross certain limit, sometimes I stay with him looking him playing his videogames, talk a lot with them, tell all the good and bad things that are in the internet, tell about the scamers, and all the bad actors in the social networks, but most important, show they that you love them and you care them and those are the reasons why are you doing this things.
  • smugma 4y ago
    Does watching PBS Kids or Disney+ count? What about YouTube Kids or YouTube? The point being that almost all content is on the Internet now. I guess your reply can be seen as a good faith response because if you block everything, there’s no need to monitor. It’s just very extreme to disallow content if provided over the Internet, rather than building trust and nuance, which I think is more along the lines of the original question.
    • zdragnar 4y ago
      I don't know what it is like now, but for a long time YouTube kids was a minefield of wildly inappropriate content- there were a bunch of articles on it a few years back: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/business/media/youtube-kids-paw-patrol.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/business/media/youtube-ki... At least PBS and Disney+ are curated. Anything social or user-generated can be nasty, and not easy to see at first.
  • ripvanwinkle 4y ago
    I'd be more flexible. There are kid safe quality sites and apps like Khan Academy, Youtube Kids , SplashLearn, the local library and more Its possible to allow list only specific URls and apps and set time limits and that works well with my 5 year old.
• oxff 4y ago
• thoms_a 4y ago
  Expose your kids to activities that are more compelling than screens. Trust me, once you take a kid go-karting, they aren't going to be as excited playing a video game. Do cool shit with your kids. Go skiing, camping, fishing, go-karting, flying (small plane tours), drone racing, etc. I know most of us here are nerds, but the jocks really do have life figured out when it comes to fun stuff.
  • Macha 4y ago
    I realise HN has a disproportionate amount of software engineers, but I know my parents would struggle to afford the likes of skiing, flying, go-karting as regular activities, never mind in sufficient quantities to displace video games and the internet. Even a trip to the bowling alley was a rare treat when I was growing up.
    • mbg721 4y ago
      It takes a few years before even something as simple as a walk to the park isn't exciting anymore. And I think the thing that's implied in most of the pessimistic responses here is "you have to start early or you lose control".
    • Tronno 4y ago
      Inexpensive outdoor activities like biking, skateboarding, ball sports, etc, all accomplish the same thing. In purchasing supplies for these activities, you're essentially signing them up for something that will consume their time and energy, leaving little to expend on diving into internet rabbit holes.
• jimnotgym 4y ago
  Before covid each child had a certain amount of time they could go online each day, enforced by the router. During lockdown I took the limit away and we were all basically glued to it. Now the router turns the Internet off at a certain time each night for the whole house, forcing me to go to bed.
• bitwize 4y ago
  No internet before age 13 at least. 1) Touching grass is super important at this phase of their development. We were given brains to move our bodies; kids need practice at running around and playing in a physically active manner. 2) Aside from the usual risks (exposure to porn, Elsagate material, child abusers, etc.) there's the fact that even innocuous kids' apps encourage addictive behavior. I made the acquaintance of a delightful six-year-old girl, the child of a family friend. She was eager to show me the games she played on her Kindle Fire, and some of them were the Skinner-boxiest things imaginable. Feed the animals ice cream by tapping the indicated thing and get a visual and sound reward. I flat out told her her favorite tablet games were boring, intended for toddlers and not big girls like her, and she needed something that would challenge her brain. She is rather smart and creative given the opportunity; she makes her own maps and such for Little Big Planet. But she is quite prone to being satisfied with the familiar and not seeking the challenge and advancement she needs (for that matter, so am I), and the internet -- even at its best, before actively harmful material enters the picture -- is only too happy to supply that stagnant comfort, to drive up engagement metrics. By all means, get your kid a computer! Do not connect it to wifi or ethernet. Tell them if they want a game for it they will have to write it themselves, and in response to their frustrated "HOW?!" open the discussion about how to program. Get them a Raspberry Pi autonomous car kit or something. All of this at appropriate ages of course. If they need to look something up online, do it for them or supervise their internet use. Require beforehand that they ask to look up something specific and once they have it, have them save it for future reference.
• csisnett 4y ago
  Your first responsibility is to protect your children from external threats, if you give them all the privacy in the world you won't be able to do that, so you need to somehow know what they're doing which means either an internet blocker or little privacy, both of which I'm fine with. For kids as small as yours the internet would not even be a choice if they were my kids
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• darthrupert 4y ago
  Ideally, this should not be the responsibility of the parent. Mainly because it’s practically impossible to protect every kid in a household-by-household basis. Ideally, the government should have strict restrictions on what content providers are allowed to show children. I’ve seen two kids practically destroyed by these devices, by the inaction of myself and my society. I thought that because I handled computers and later Internet just fine, that they could do it just as well. I think I underestimated the level of the danger by a huge margin. I have two more kids who are yet mostly unharmed, and due to this experience, I will clamp down on their device use in a much more drastic manner.
• fdsafdsfdsa 4y ago
  >you are likely to understand my concern for privacy and personal integrity, I've given up on the high ideals I used to hold about (online) privacy (and anonymity). There's an argument that they, in some circumstances, are the antithesis of personal and public responsibility. My current plan is that my kids will get tech when they can afford it themselves. I'm also dreading it, as more parents bow to the pressure and allow kids to have phones and tablets at an ever-younger age. I do understand the downsides of this, and also don't want my kids to be social pariahs. Also - you role model what your kids will do. If you think it's ok to sit and scroll on your phone at every opportunity, so will your kids. If you game till the early hours, so will your kids. FWIW both my wife and I gave up smartphones last year, and all "tech" in the house is banished to our home office. When a family computer becomes a necessity, it will be in a shared area.
  • jstarfish 4y ago
    > I do understand the downsides of this, and also don't want my kids to be social pariahs. FWIW, they will more likely become pariahs (or suicidal) from a lapse in judgment involving said device.
  • nemo1618 4y ago
    Can you talk more about giving up smartphones? That's a pretty radical move.
    • intrasight 4y ago
      Did fine without one for my first 47 years, so I'm not sure how "radical" that really is. I couldn't be without while away from home. But do we really need them at home?
      • nemo1618 4y ago
        Yeah, that was my thought -- maybe just keep a separate smartphone in the car, and never bring it in the house? Seems like the only times you really "need" a smartphone are when you're out somewhere.
• s1k3 4y ago
  I kind of don’t understand all the crazy concern around kids and tech. Was like every current parent negatively impacted by their computer and internet use when they were younger? Is this simply a concern around social media usage which has ballooned in the past 10 years? I sometimes feel like I’m in the minority here when I’m going to give me children wide latitude in their tech/internet usage. And only intervene if I see detrimental behavior as a result.
  • nemo1618 4y ago
    I had a strange epiphany around age 16 when I realized that, thanks to 4chan, I had probably seen more ghastly shit within the past few months than my parents had in the entire lives -- and that I was already completely desensitized to it.
    • harpersealtako 4y ago
      I'm definitely in the weird minority that feels like that phase of edgy internet counterculture diving was an overwhelming positive thing for me. It gave me perspective as a sheltered suburb kid as to how fucked up things can be in the world. I feel I have a lot more empathy now whereas before I struggled to internalize the problems and suffering of people around me as "real" (things like war or crime were things that happened on television and in fictional novels, not in real life). Even now I feel like some people, especially in my parents' generation, have trouble seriously understanding the lives of people outside their immediate ingroups. I would not recommend it as a method for anybody though, there are a dozen other routes that kind of journey could have gone down and most of them lead to terrible conclusions.
  • mixmastamyk 4y ago
    You may not be aware of the full extent of the problem. It's not just the "time wasting" of the old days, just ~15 years ago. Try these documentaries: - "The Social Dilemma" on Netflix - "The United States of Secrets" on PBS. - John Oliver on Data Brokers, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqn3gR1WTcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqn3gR1WTcA There are others I can't remember off the top of my head. You may feel differently when you find out about companies profiting off the current (as in right now) whereabouts of your child.
• kfogel 4y ago
  There's a whole book about this, FWIW: "Screenwise", by Devorah Heitner (see https://devorahheitner.com/screenwise/ https://devorahheitner.com/screenwise/).
• brightball 4y ago
  I’m going to go the other direction…it’s your responsibility to violate your childrens online privacy at least up to a certain age. Block, restrict, monitor. Say no pretty much all the time. They’ll be fine. There’s so much stuff out there where they’ll have no idea what’s going on but you’ll recognize it immediately. NextDNS is great for this stuff. Apple Family Manager too. On a phone or iPad just remove safari entirely if you need to. You’re their parent, not their friend. You can’t be both.
  • Xeoncross 4y ago
    Yeah, lots of good points raised in other comments but I agree. For young kids there isn't as much of an upside to freely roaming the internet. With guidance, children can get all the good stuff while not having to face grooming, bullying, hate spam, or other dangerous traps online. Once young people need to start giving back, publishing content, selling/purchasing things, networking, etc... then the benefits of the free internet really come into play for them.
  • abirch 4y ago
    My wife and I explain how much privacy that they should expect (not much) and stick to that. This entails playing their Roblox games occasionally and reviewing their browser history.
  • Sophistifunk 4y ago
    And don't flip out too much when you catch them learning to avoid the control. That's an important lesson for them to learn, because once they're grown and out of the nest, the people trying to control, monitor, and limit their access to information are not doing it for the victims' benefit.
    • brightball 4y ago
      Oh, my son figured out some of them and I congratulated him. He’s actually figured out a bunch, but he’s also old enough that it’s time for him to start getting more access.
  • smeej 4y ago
• heavyset_go 4y ago
  Teach them internet safety and etiquette. Kids don't fully appreciate that awful people exist or that there are a lot of them, or that they can use the guise of the internet to abuse and exploit people in ways they've never considered before. > - Do I give them the ability to do online purchases? Depends on the age, this one I'd say no. Let them spend their own money how they see fit, but also educate them about scams and shitty business practices. Don't give them a blank check to buy whatever they want unless you want to incentivize addictive purchasing habits from in-game and in-app purchases. It often amounts to literal gambling, and kids are easy targets for the unscrupulous. > - Do I limit their "screen time" (hate that term) or will that prevent them from interacting with their friends in the way they would want to? You can hobble phones and tablets and force them to only run approved apps. Let them text and video chat with their friends and keep them away from exploitative business models. Other than that, I appreciate your respect for your kids' privacy. My experience growing up with friends that had invasive parents is that they just learn to hide things well from their parents, and become averse to telling them the truth because they've learned they can't trust their parents. If your kids have a problem, you want them to come to you for help and not avoid you until they can't anymore.
• mixmastamyk 4y ago
  This is akin to dropping off your kids in Times Square NYC with a twenty. I'd rethink it. The privacy you mention does not exist online. All the "good spots" are run by surveillance capitalism in bed with the government. Kids need privacy from these entities, not privacy from their parents until mid-late teens.
• p1necone 4y ago
  If you try to control your kids internet/device usage too much they will learn to work around it (at least once they hit the young teens). Try to have open conversations with them and teach them about the dangers of strangers, predatory microtransactions, the permanence of whatever they post on the internet etc. If you just try to monitor and restrict what they do they will grow to resent you, and they'll hide everything from you (and they'll likely be much better at this than you expect). Do note this advice is for teenagers though. I suspect you'd be quite successful limiting a 5-10 year olds unsupervised access to the internet, and probably justified in doing so imo.
  • PebblesRox 4y ago
    I highly recommend Kidpower [0] as a resource for how to have these kinds of conversations - they're really good at making things really specific and understandable for kids without going into details that are not age-appropriate. They also have good advice for how to teach and equip kids to be independent while maintaining appropriate safety boundaries at each stage along the way to full independence. [1] Discussion and trust are important but I think there is a phase where kids do not yet have the maturity for discussion and trust to be enough to keep them safe. In the meantime, they also need supervision and physical boundaries to be safe. As an analogy, no amount of verbal instruction will allow a toddler to walk safely by themselves near traffic. Until they reach a certain maturity level, children need an adult who is paying attention and is ready to physically intervene if they start heading for the street. I think there's a similar dynamic at play when it comes to internet safety. We need to teach our kids so that they will be ready for independence but we also need to recognize that they will not be ready for full independence for quite a while, given the complexity of the risks involved. [0] https://www.kidpower.org/library/article/online-safety-for-young-people/ https://www.kidpower.org/library/article/online-safety-for-y... [1] https://www.kidpower.org/library/article/preparing-independence/ https://www.kidpower.org/library/article/preparing-independe...
  • PragmaticPulp 4y ago
    > they will learn to work around it (at least once they hit the young teens). Teenage years and the 7-12 range are worlds apart in terms of what’s appropriate. Regardless, it’s not a good idea to let “perfect be the enemy of good”. The idea that putting any restrictions in place will result in kids going off and accessing the worst stuff doesn’t really follow, in my experience. Half the battle is communicating expectations and creating a framework for understanding what’s reasonable and what’s not.
• resonious 4y ago
  When I was a kid (8 or 9 yrs old?) back in the early 2000s, my mom was pretty tech savvy compared to her peers. She actually installed corporate monitoring monitoring software on my machine and told me about it. She said the internet is dangerous and she needs to see what I'm doing to protect me / make sure I'm not up to no good. Once I'm older she'd remove it. It all made sense to me and I didn't mind. I think it also helped deter me from doing anything too stupid.
• avowud 4y ago
  You probably want Circle[0] that works via ARP spoofing. [0]: https://meetcircle.com/ https://meetcircle.com/
  • rexreed 4y ago
    Is there an open source / Raspberry Pi version of this?
• adamredwoods 4y ago
  I am a parent. It's difficult at times to balance freedom and regulation. Do the best you can, and remember balance is key. Early years (2-7yo) was highly regulated, but gave more freedom at older ages (7+ yo). For rewards, we use the star/chart system, works well! Define some chores, each chore got a star sticky. After 10 stars, gets a toy or Roblox bucks. Roblox is pretty good at teaching lessons in money management, spend it all or slowly save up. Never allow them to buy without a parent. Do not save that CC info online! Same with iPad and other devices, lock down all payments! Video watching is more open now that they are at a later age, but I had to put my foot down on Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure recently, lol, maybe when they're older. I used to regulate the YouTube to ONLY certain channels that don't swear, like Zack Scott, who is great, BTW.
  • TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    > After 10 stars, gets a toy Tip: the Dollar Stores have a toy aisle with toys little kids love. Go nuts at $1.25 each. Some of them they may only play with once.
• kc10 4y ago
  I had a good handle on my kids online habits until covid hit. Once they transitioned to fully online classes, they got used to longer screen times and internet access. I have installed Qustodio to block and monitor their internet habits. But my 12 year old somehow figured out how to unblock herself from Qustodio, but things are blocked on my younger one's laptop. Every time I restart the laptop, sites are blocked for sometime, she does something again to unblock herself. So I had to manually block a bunch on in appropriate domains that I am aware of via /etc/hosts. I think once kids grow up (11y+ in my personal case), they don't like us to know what they are doing online. They wouldn't want you to be around when they chat with their friends etc. But whenever there is an opportunity I try to tell them about the bad that happens online, not share their personal information, addresses, pictures online, monitor the sites they visit and block if they are inappropriate.
• wanderingbort 4y ago
  To all the opinions already posted I will add just one more: none of it was given by people who know you and your kids. They are unique and will have a set of natural and nurtured skills that are critically important when dealing with the social and psychological cornucopia that is the Internet. This isn’t something where we have a lot good replicated research from which to draw conclusions. We can all provide our own experience in an honest attempt to help but it will be your family that has to figure this out regardless. Give yourself and your children the grace to make some mistakes on this journey. That you care enough to be concerned is a sign that you are a good parent.
• rmdoss 4y ago
  So hard to balance both. For my young kids ( under 10 ), I am very strict on what they can see and do online. Screen time, CleanBrowsing, and app restrictions enabled. For my teenager, it is a bit different. More conversation, more privacy and more spending time teaching her about computers, security, privacy, etc. She chose to install CleanBrowsing, an ad blocker, all on her own to protect herself. Good luck!
• StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  Would you feel comfortable dropping off your kid, by himself, in a foreign country with no supervision? That's how you should view being online. When they are very young, they should be attached at the hip. As they age, and (hopefully) mature and develop the capacity for navigating the dangers and the judgement to make good choices, they should be granted increasing levels of freedom. Most importantly, however, is to remember that you and you alone are the one responsible for the well-being of your child. Nothing matters less than what other parents or other kids are doing, or what schools, governments and "experts" recommend. At the end of the day the responsibility for your child is yours alone. Spending a lot of time with your child and getting a good gauge on just how much freedom and responsibility they can handle is absolutely critical to this process. In my opinion the fact that so many don't have the time to spend with their child, because of work or other obligations, or choose to outsource the raising of their child to a school or daycare program because they see other people doing it, is why our society is turning out so many broken people. If you really take an interest, your child will pick up on that - just like they will pick up on it if you don't.
• closeparen 4y ago
  The wide open internet is a pretty serious threat environment and it makes sense that parents want to protect their kids from strangers and horrific content. But one thing I find pretty disturbing is parents monitoring the digital footprint of their children's real-world relationships. Most people would find it pretty creepy if you made your child wear a tape recorder to school or a friend's house, but the digital equivalent - reading text and instant message content - is surprisingly accepted. I had some friends who were monitored this way and it was very uncomfortable knowing that their parents were party to any conversation we had. My enormous volumes of unrestricted screen time led to my interest and eventual career in technology; I'm pretty grateful for them. On the other hand I do feel like success in modern life is down to resisting the siren song of empty-calories time sinks like social media, gaming, Reddit, Twitter, etc. and the successful adults of the next generation will be those whose parents inculcate self-control and moderation here.
  • mixmastamyk 4y ago
    Schools have adult supervision already and don't need parental surveillance. Kids are most often molested/influenced by someone close, and internet only expands that reach. If you think parents doing their job is the primary problem here, I'm frankly a bit surprised. The truth is nothing is private, so better get used to it. I never used the internet until my mid-twenties, and it hasn't held my technology career back in the slightest.
    • closeparen 4y ago
      >Schools have adult supervision already Students have a great deal more privacy at school than in digital-surveillance households: conversations at lunch and recess are not normally monitored or reviewable by staff members, for example. >The truth is nothing is private, so better get used to it. I think this kind of defeatism is bad, but even as far as it goes, the sense in which "nothing is private" refers to, like, the NSA and advertising bots. That is a very different thing from disclosure to people who have personal relationships and power dynamics with you. I would hope that kids don't "get used to it" and go on to perpetrate or accept that kind of behavior in their future relationships. >I never used the internet until my mid-twenties, and it hasn't held my technology career back in the slightest. While most kids using computers have nothing to do with technology careers, it is pretty clearly the case now that programming for the first time in CS101 would put you at an extreme (though not necessarily insurmountable) disadvantage. > parents doing their job Parents are reinterpreting "their job" to be much more intense over the last few decades already (helicopter parenting, stranger paranoia, driving everywhere, etc). In a remote-first world, they are poised to have essentially total visibility and control over every aspect of life. At some point their job has got to be to produce adults.
• nathanfig 4y ago
  Reading these comments it’s clear there is no consensus and that this is a crisis of sorts that has gone largely unrecognized. Tech companies are innovating faster than parenting wisdom can evolve. New challenges on the horizon with the metaverse, AI, and an increasing share of products that can only function connected to the Internet.
• jcpst 4y ago
  During the pandemic, I refurbished two old laptops for my kids to use while my wife and I worked during the day. They play mostly Roblox and Minecraft. I don’t monitor everything they do, but I do check in. I give them each $5/mo in Roblox money (robux). They can spend it all as soon as they get it, or save it. But that’s all they get. Even though the screen time is more than I think it should be, we try and create balance by getting out every day- going to the park, to the pool, running errands together, weekend camping trips… I’ve tried different variations on screen-time, but the truth is it varies enough for us that it doesn’t seem worth it to police it. Some days end up being screen heavy. Some days the screens don’t even get turned on. In any case, do what you think is right, keep learning as you go, and don’t be too hard on yourself when you inevitably make a mistake.
• syntheweave 4y ago
  I have contemplated this although I'm not yet in a position to face it myself. But I can draw on my own experiences seeing the modern, engineered-experience internet gradually grow up day by day. The critical thing, I think, is not to hide them from the bad and act like the entire job is done - because then at some point later, you open the door and shove them through it saying "ok, you're ready kid" and they aren't - but to expose them and prepare them in ways of "extracting more from less" - to feel self-sufficient so that they don't get stuck in a bad habit. So blocking can be used as part of the solution, but it has to come with some alternatives. What we're looking at with our information society verges on "basic life skills." The way of the algorithm is to leave you slightly unsatisfied and clicking into the next video, sharing more than you need to, begging for attention. What is the way around it? How does one train themselves to stay safe online in the same way that one learns to tie shoelaces? (I've known adults who gave up on tying their shoelaces. It is a pitiful sight.) Well, you can visibly take up a hobby of media analysis and philosophical critique. Take the content, identify how it works, and add your critique. If it's entertainment, you can look for technical breakdowns of how it works. If it's politics, find the part of the argument that is a contradiction, because all ideologies have them. And that can be the dinner discussion. Doing that week after week for years will give them an awareness of media that they won't acknowledge as anything special, but will reveal itself abruptly when they start calling out their friends for consuming trash and getting into vicious arguments as a result. And then they can learn to not read their replies. Remember, we're looking towards "what happens after you let them out the door". One path leads them towards being employed as someone's intellectual footsoldier, regurgitating whatever memetic information is out there and living a life that is not entirely their own. Another is to give them exits and ways of being that are genuine to their inclination. Working on yourself and your issues gives them the example to follow, so always look to do "things for myself that my kids can also learn from". Like, my dad had a focus on healthy diet and exercise, my mom did not. Guess which one I followed? My dad, of course. Not immediately in every sense, because I also tried mom's ideas, but I was aware of it and grew towards it. That's what saves a person. And so...also give them books that are disconnected from the online experience, the "good books" that nobody talks about but everyone recommends, in all subjects. There are a lot of them, and the level of content is so far beyond the average reaction Youtuber. And there are really good Youtubers too, who usually aren't doing clickbait and so aren't the most polished or popular. You can download and archive those, and that will be fine up through the grade school years. But you have to keep up with the subjects that they're interested in, and this tends to shift around really quickly until they're near adult age. And often people just can't hear things unless they like who's saying it, so some valuable advice will inevitably be overlooked. "Youth is wasted on the young" is a basic rule. So you have to not look at it in terms of bringing up their averages. If they grow up knowing "here are some good ways to live" and they still reject all of them, that's not the end of the story, and they may come around in time.
• knowingpark 4y ago
  If all the other kids were eating poison, would you want yours to eat it too? Do you really want a corporation, whose express purpose is to turn your child into a shopaholic by the age of 10, to raise your kid? Do you really want your child to have no connection to themselves through "influencer" level indoctrination? Is infinte scroll really worth investing the best years of your child's life in? I gave my daughter a Nokia flip phone, she soon became part of the family again. You don't have to buy into the idea that exposing innocent, defenseless people to rapacious corporations is a question of freedom. Its bullshit. Unsubscribe.
• sjs382 4y ago
  Being intrusive just trains your kids to be sneaky. Stay aware of what motivates them and talk to them about what theyre doing on their devices. Start early because this is something thats hard to do without a good foundation.
• alfor 4y ago
  First thing, I know this is for when they are older, but delay access to tv and computer as much as possible. When baby are young they look at facial interaction to build their sense of belonging, putting them on tv disrupt their normal developpement. Same things when they are a bit older, they should play with people and physical things. When they get older we used to watch movie together and now (12yo, 13yo) they play games online but we limit the time. I removed the phone from my son a few month ago when I discovered that he sneaked it into is room and was watching Tictoc instead of sleeping. All those games and short video are like drugs to most kids. On the positive side, he learned a bit of programming, 3D design by himself, we play with 3D printing, etc. Here most kids don’t play outside anymore, we have almost given up as there is no one outside to play with them. I think the Internet have ruined a normal childhood.