6 ms·

Ask HN: Do any of you “space out” when you are programming or cogitating?

Serious question. Family close to me has been diagnosed with epilepsy due to Absence Seizures [1]. The more I learn about it, the more I'm like "snap" that's what I go through myself when I am working out the logic to a problem I'm coding. Maybe I'm just projecting and making everything about me. I do understand that some epilepsy syndromes can be familial. When I was younger it was like "look he's spaced out". And someone would chime in "no he's processing". Is this just me (and my family)? Or is it more widespread? [1] https://www.epilepsy.com/what-is-epilepsy/seizure-types/absence-seizures

themodelplumber 4y ago
Are you saying you're able to perceive things or process your code during these moments? From what I can see in browsing around, the term itself seems connected to a straight up loss of consciousness. I see that absence seizures are also mistaken for not paying attention, or daydreaming. But really, these are petit mal seizures yielding significant EEG measurements, do I have that right? If so, that's got to be quite a tempting overlap for a latch-on self diagnosis when other terminologies aren't bringing the needed satisfaction. Especially if it seems like there is some deficit in the overall subjective work outcome. I hope that access to EEGs is pretty straightforward. I had an EEG done by a professor of neuroscience (for insights into how my brain lit up during various tasks) and it didn't seem like it had to be anything super clinical, so, fingers crossed for those who really need to get those graphs checked out and discover what's behind the lapses. In my case the professor challenged me to work on using my frontal lobe more, because I use the back side of my brain gobs, I guess. I did a lot of work on correcting the connections so to speak, and I have to say it has helped a lot. I also developed my own meditation technique to build on the fact that I have more ready access to the non-frontal stuff and I find it really relaxing.
- stevenjgarner 4y ago
  Great questions. I guess I always BEGIN with clear perception of code or logic but at some point I realize that I have lost that perception and I am in some kind of no-mans land in my mind - yet often with the result of what I am looking for in hand. When your "professor challenged (you) to work on using (your) frontal lobe more", what exactly did he mean? How did you do that? I would love to be tested with EEG etc, and will definitely bring this up at my next medical visit, although they may not take me seriously. As a young man I played a lot with biofeedback (including heart rate, galvanic skin response and brainwaves) measured with really simple electroencephalography (EEG) electrodes. I was amazed how easy it was to influence the result with neurofeedback. Anyone here doing anything like that? I might buy a simple recorder and measure my brainwaves during a hackathon.
  - themodelplumber 4y ago
    Very interesting then, I hope you find a helpful way forward if it's any kind of issue. > what exactly did he mean? How did you do that? From the way he explained it, he was referring to increasing my attention to subjective-executive activity. So like, "ah, I know what I'll try next time!" subjective organizations of things, subjective logic, frameworks, clever plans. My main go-to is subjective-perceptive, IOW kind of waiting, watching what's coming, and more existentially surfing those waves as they come, more foresight- and in-the-moment-based perceptual activity. So one example of an activity I do more often now is a sort of lessons-learned organization of things, looking back at what happened during a given activity or context, and planning for what I'd do differently next time. IDK how that sounds since it's been both a huge change and also one that's mostly in my past, but in my case it was a real game-changer. However I'd really emphasize that this is just based on my own EEG results as processed through his experience in doing that kind of thing, and not general advice necessarily. For some people the steps I took myself can really make things much worse for sure, even though it sounds constructive generally speaking. For example if you're naturally a subjective-executive person, you run the risk of basically overusing that functionality and developing huge blind spots which could lead to problems. BTW a long time ago I used to participate in a university-level biofeedback lab. The instruments were pretty simple but the results were IMO pretty great and reliably so, in my case anyway. Should be a pretty good project if you get into it. I've been wanting to start on my own gear/lab for that kind of thing, but just haven't got to it yet.
kstenerud 4y ago
I've always done that. When I'm concentrating on something I just tune out the noise of the outside world, sometimes for hours. People who know me know not to interrupt me because it's extremely aggravating to be pulled out of it. I suppose it looks strange to someone else, seeing me in what appears to be a catatonic state. But there's no history of epilepsy in my family. Also as I understand it, an absence seizure blocks activity in the brain, so you'd get nothing done during an episode.
- stevenjgarner 4y ago
  Absence seizures can be extremely brief - "Most absence seizures are less than 15 seconds long. It’s rare for an absence seizure to last longer than 15 seconds. They can happen suddenly without any warning signs." [0]. So it is difficult to ascertain whether I got "nothing done". [0] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/epilepsy/absence-seizures https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...
t-3 4y ago
Yep. I will spend hours thinking about some sticky logic with my eyes unfocused and rolled upwards like I'm doing math. No epilepsy in my family.
- stevenjgarner 4y ago
  Are you aware all throughout while you are doing that or do you sometimes arrive at the conclusion and wonder how you got there? I kind of wonder how many problems my subconscious solves for me.
  - t-3 4y ago
    I'm aware throughout, but usually my thinking leads me nowhere! I often find the solution I'm thinking of the next morning or a few days later, and wonder why it wasn't so obvious the first time I pondered it.
    - stevenjgarner 4y ago
      For sure on finding the solution at a later time. I have a bedtime ritual where an alarm goes off in the evening to remind me to identify the most important problem I have been unable to solve today. I then tell myself that I would really like to have the solution to that problem when I wake up in the morning. Now maybe it would happen anyway, but a good deal of the time when I do that I will wake up with something valuable.
peanut_worm 4y ago
Thats just thinking. It is easy to think when you aren’t processing everything around you. I don’t think people are having coherent thoughts during an Absence Seizure. If it is happening like 50 times a day, then see a doctor but probably not worth worrying about. I would recommend you don’t look up any health related articles if you are having minor symptoms of anything or you will become a hypochondriac. I had a very bad year of constant health anxiety and it almost ruined my life.
- stevenjgarner 4y ago
  Note to self on the becoming a hypochondriac. Yes I do get that epileptics are not (always?) aware when they are having Absence Seizures. Which is also a derivative concern: how may times when I "space out" programming do I actually loose awareness? A lot of time can pass when I am working and I am often surprised that I have been "working" so long - especially when it is a particularly challenging software design issue that may only be represented by a minimal amount of code.
  - peanut_worm 4y ago
    It would probably happen when you aren’t programming if it were actually an absence seizure. It is totally normal to space out a bit when thinking. I cover my eyes and lay down sometimes if I need to think very hard when i’m coding. Im not a doctor or anything but what you described sounds very normal.
    - stevenjgarner 4y ago
      I'm sure it does "happen when (I'm not) programming". I walk a lot (like a LOT - greater than 10,000 steps daily), and often I will realize I have covered a lot of ground without any memory of doing so. Dare I say the same thing happens when I drive? Does anybody else get that driving? I treat it as a form of trying to be present. Usually drivers are mentally consumed with something they are driving from or to (or what is on the phone or the radio) and not with the roadway that is rapidly being navigated. Sometimes I find I have been mentally consumed with something unrelated to driving as I go from A to B, wondering how on earth I got there. I now try and be hyper-present with the roadway and driving conditions, even though my brain can process a lot more. I am really beginning to question what "normal" really is to homo sapiens that spent the better part of two million years as hunter gatherers up until only 12,000 years ago. It's not like we have had a chance to really evolve the finer points of critical thinking.
gwnywg 4y ago
I used to have absence seisures, until today I thought it's nothing to worry about (well, I still think there is nothing to worry about since I sometimes experience 'normal' absence seisures). From that experience I can say, in my case, this has nothing to do with spacing out when processing some problem. When I have absence seisure my brain is basically doing nothing, I fly away for couple of seconds until I realise what happens and then I'm back again.
- stevenjgarner 4y ago
  In the case of my family member, that was kind of the attitude for a long while. Now they are not allowed to drive, bike, swim etc., as there really is an absence of being present.
  - gwnywg 4y ago
    Is it too far to ask how old is your family member? For me I don't see this happening when I do something (like when I read, or have a conversation, or drive). I also don't see this happening more often than when I was in my teens. I sometimes catch myself experiencing short episodes when I'm already idle, staring at view or in similar situation. And I notice random people having this too, I guess this can develop like described in wikipedia article.
nbernard 4y ago
To me, what you describe is just flow state [0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
- stevenjgarner 4y ago
  I think the difference is that flow state is heightened awareness ("hyperfocus"), while absence seizures are brief loss and return of consciousness. I think that there is great similarity as you allude. In many forms of meditation (e.g. TM), you come back to the meditative process (e.g. mantra) once you are aware that you are distracted with thought. I feel that flow state is a continuum of focused thought where there are no distracting thoughts, while absence seizures are similar loss of awareness of what the mind is doing. Often when I "space out", it is as if my thought process has gone sub-conscious and very occasionally I will have arrived at a thought conclusion or epiphany without realizing how I got there.
CodeWriter23 4y ago
Pretty sure absence seizures are a stoppage in brain activity undetectable by the individual but visible on a PET Scan. I do experience deep thought, where I can be thinking about something that is maxing out my short term memory and if someone interrupts with their voice, I have to ask them to repeat what they just said. Also very frustrating for me as it takes considerable time and focus to return to that state.
- stevenjgarner 4y ago
  I commiserate with the frustration of being interrupted. I will get a phone call interruption or someone knocking on my door, and all those mental registers in which I am juggling various thoughts just get instantly shuffled. Blue screen of death. Hard reset. Sometimes with complete loss of hours of work. > maxing out my short term memory is that a subjective experience where you legitimately feel you have run out of memory and cannot take in anything more?
  - CodeWriter23 4y ago
    I’ve read people have 7 +/- 2 “short term” memory slots. As you put it, registers. I know at times I seem like I’m going in circles with 8 or 9 facts/ideas trying to solve something that’s when I pause and make two smaller problems and then I can get through it. Unfortunately there is no “fault” signal to engage the exception handler, I usually have to figure it out the hard way.
    - stevenjgarner 4y ago
      Fascinating. First search came up with the 5-9 STM slots [0], together with a STM duration between 15 and 30 seconds and encoding that is primarily acoustic, even translating visual information into sounds. The STM duration seems way short given the nature of most software design problems. Is the implication that we reload the data that often when we keep at something? > I pause and make two smaller problems I am assuming that is deliberate/intentional and not subliminal? If so, do you have any kind of mental algorithm for breaking things down? [0] https://www.simplypsychology.org/short-term-memory.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/short-term-memory.html
kayamon 4y ago
I do that a lot when thinking, always have. I learned later in life that I have celiac disease and in hindsight I believe that to be related.
- stevenjgarner 4y ago
  Are you suggesting that lack of correct nutrition might contribute to the "spacing out"? Clearly adequate quality nutrition (especially enough protein) is the basis of cogent thought. I've ordered the Viome gut microbiome test, and will be interested to see if anything emerges that is known to effect brain health.
simonblack 4y ago
That state has several names: "Flow" or "In the Zone". It's when you have a whole, interlocking bunch of ideas in your head at once and can visualise how they work together. It often takes an hour or more to reach that state. Sometimes many hours can pass 'in a flash' while in it. Its a common situation. And a famous depiction: https://heeris.id.au/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-interrupt-a-programmer/ https://heeris.id.au/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-interrupt...

themodelplumber 4y ago

Are you saying you're able to perceive things or process your code during these moments? From what I can see in browsing around, the term itself seems connected to a straight up loss of consciousness. I see that absence seizures are also mistaken for not paying attention, or daydreaming. But really, these are petit mal seizures yielding significant EEG measurements, do I have that right? If so, that's got to be quite a tempting overlap for a latch-on self diagnosis when other terminologies aren't bringing the needed satisfaction. Especially if it seems like there is some deficit in the overall subjective work outcome. I hope that access to EEGs is pretty straightforward. I had an EEG done by a professor of neuroscience (for insights into how my brain lit up during various tasks) and it didn't seem like it had to be anything super clinical, so, fingers crossed for those who really need to get those graphs checked out and discover what's behind the lapses. In my case the professor challenged me to work on using my frontal lobe more, because I use the back side of my brain gobs, I guess. I did a lot of work on correcting the connections so to speak, and I have to say it has helped a lot. I also developed my own meditation technique to build on the fact that I have more ready access to the non-frontal stuff and I find it really relaxing.

stevenjgarner 4y ago
Great questions. I guess I always BEGIN with clear perception of code or logic but at some point I realize that I have lost that perception and I am in some kind of no-mans land in my mind - yet often with the result of what I am looking for in hand. When your "professor challenged (you) to work on using (your) frontal lobe more", what exactly did he mean? How did you do that? I would love to be tested with EEG etc, and will definitely bring this up at my next medical visit, although they may not take me seriously. As a young man I played a lot with biofeedback (including heart rate, galvanic skin response and brainwaves) measured with really simple electroencephalography (EEG) electrodes. I was amazed how easy it was to influence the result with neurofeedback. Anyone here doing anything like that? I might buy a simple recorder and measure my brainwaves during a hackathon.
- themodelplumber 4y ago
  Very interesting then, I hope you find a helpful way forward if it's any kind of issue. > what exactly did he mean? How did you do that? From the way he explained it, he was referring to increasing my attention to subjective-executive activity. So like, "ah, I know what I'll try next time!" subjective organizations of things, subjective logic, frameworks, clever plans. My main go-to is subjective-perceptive, IOW kind of waiting, watching what's coming, and more existentially surfing those waves as they come, more foresight- and in-the-moment-based perceptual activity. So one example of an activity I do more often now is a sort of lessons-learned organization of things, looking back at what happened during a given activity or context, and planning for what I'd do differently next time. IDK how that sounds since it's been both a huge change and also one that's mostly in my past, but in my case it was a real game-changer. However I'd really emphasize that this is just based on my own EEG results as processed through his experience in doing that kind of thing, and not general advice necessarily. For some people the steps I took myself can really make things much worse for sure, even though it sounds constructive generally speaking. For example if you're naturally a subjective-executive person, you run the risk of basically overusing that functionality and developing huge blind spots which could lead to problems. BTW a long time ago I used to participate in a university-level biofeedback lab. The instruments were pretty simple but the results were IMO pretty great and reliably so, in my case anyway. Should be a pretty good project if you get into it. I've been wanting to start on my own gear/lab for that kind of thing, but just haven't got to it yet.

kstenerud 4y ago

I've always done that. When I'm concentrating on something I just tune out the noise of the outside world, sometimes for hours. People who know me know not to interrupt me because it's extremely aggravating to be pulled out of it. I suppose it looks strange to someone else, seeing me in what appears to be a catatonic state. But there's no history of epilepsy in my family. Also as I understand it, an absence seizure blocks activity in the brain, so you'd get nothing done during an episode.

stevenjgarner 4y ago
Absence seizures can be extremely brief - "Most absence seizures are less than 15 seconds long. It’s rare for an absence seizure to last longer than 15 seconds. They can happen suddenly without any warning signs." [0]. So it is difficult to ascertain whether I got "nothing done". [0] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/epilepsy/absence-seizures https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...

t-3 4y ago

Yep. I will spend hours thinking about some sticky logic with my eyes unfocused and rolled upwards like I'm doing math. No epilepsy in my family.

stevenjgarner 4y ago
Are you aware all throughout while you are doing that or do you sometimes arrive at the conclusion and wonder how you got there? I kind of wonder how many problems my subconscious solves for me.
- t-3 4y ago
  I'm aware throughout, but usually my thinking leads me nowhere! I often find the solution I'm thinking of the next morning or a few days later, and wonder why it wasn't so obvious the first time I pondered it.
  - stevenjgarner 4y ago
    For sure on finding the solution at a later time. I have a bedtime ritual where an alarm goes off in the evening to remind me to identify the most important problem I have been unable to solve today. I then tell myself that I would really like to have the solution to that problem when I wake up in the morning. Now maybe it would happen anyway, but a good deal of the time when I do that I will wake up with something valuable.

peanut_worm 4y ago

Thats just thinking. It is easy to think when you aren’t processing everything around you. I don’t think people are having coherent thoughts during an Absence Seizure. If it is happening like 50 times a day, then see a doctor but probably not worth worrying about. I would recommend you don’t look up any health related articles if you are having minor symptoms of anything or you will become a hypochondriac. I had a very bad year of constant health anxiety and it almost ruined my life.

stevenjgarner 4y ago
Note to self on the becoming a hypochondriac. Yes I do get that epileptics are not (always?) aware when they are having Absence Seizures. Which is also a derivative concern: how may times when I "space out" programming do I actually loose awareness? A lot of time can pass when I am working and I am often surprised that I have been "working" so long - especially when it is a particularly challenging software design issue that may only be represented by a minimal amount of code.
- peanut_worm 4y ago
  It would probably happen when you aren’t programming if it were actually an absence seizure. It is totally normal to space out a bit when thinking. I cover my eyes and lay down sometimes if I need to think very hard when i’m coding. Im not a doctor or anything but what you described sounds very normal.
  - stevenjgarner 4y ago
    I'm sure it does "happen when (I'm not) programming". I walk a lot (like a LOT - greater than 10,000 steps daily), and often I will realize I have covered a lot of ground without any memory of doing so. Dare I say the same thing happens when I drive? Does anybody else get that driving? I treat it as a form of trying to be present. Usually drivers are mentally consumed with something they are driving from or to (or what is on the phone or the radio) and not with the roadway that is rapidly being navigated. Sometimes I find I have been mentally consumed with something unrelated to driving as I go from A to B, wondering how on earth I got there. I now try and be hyper-present with the roadway and driving conditions, even though my brain can process a lot more. I am really beginning to question what "normal" really is to homo sapiens that spent the better part of two million years as hunter gatherers up until only 12,000 years ago. It's not like we have had a chance to really evolve the finer points of critical thinking.

gwnywg 4y ago

I used to have absence seisures, until today I thought it's nothing to worry about (well, I still think there is nothing to worry about since I sometimes experience 'normal' absence seisures). From that experience I can say, in my case, this has nothing to do with spacing out when processing some problem. When I have absence seisure my brain is basically doing nothing, I fly away for couple of seconds until I realise what happens and then I'm back again.

stevenjgarner 4y ago
In the case of my family member, that was kind of the attitude for a long while. Now they are not allowed to drive, bike, swim etc., as there really is an absence of being present.
- gwnywg 4y ago
  Is it too far to ask how old is your family member? For me I don't see this happening when I do something (like when I read, or have a conversation, or drive). I also don't see this happening more often than when I was in my teens. I sometimes catch myself experiencing short episodes when I'm already idle, staring at view or in similar situation. And I notice random people having this too, I guess this can develop like described in wikipedia article.

nbernard 4y ago

To me, what you describe is just flow state [0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

stevenjgarner 4y ago
I think the difference is that flow state is heightened awareness ("hyperfocus"), while absence seizures are brief loss and return of consciousness. I think that there is great similarity as you allude. In many forms of meditation (e.g. TM), you come back to the meditative process (e.g. mantra) once you are aware that you are distracted with thought. I feel that flow state is a continuum of focused thought where there are no distracting thoughts, while absence seizures are similar loss of awareness of what the mind is doing. Often when I "space out", it is as if my thought process has gone sub-conscious and very occasionally I will have arrived at a thought conclusion or epiphany without realizing how I got there.

CodeWriter23 4y ago

Pretty sure absence seizures are a stoppage in brain activity undetectable by the individual but visible on a PET Scan. I do experience deep thought, where I can be thinking about something that is maxing out my short term memory and if someone interrupts with their voice, I have to ask them to repeat what they just said. Also very frustrating for me as it takes considerable time and focus to return to that state.

stevenjgarner 4y ago
I commiserate with the frustration of being interrupted. I will get a phone call interruption or someone knocking on my door, and all those mental registers in which I am juggling various thoughts just get instantly shuffled. Blue screen of death. Hard reset. Sometimes with complete loss of hours of work. > maxing out my short term memory is that a subjective experience where you legitimately feel you have run out of memory and cannot take in anything more?
- CodeWriter23 4y ago
  I’ve read people have 7 +/- 2 “short term” memory slots. As you put it, registers. I know at times I seem like I’m going in circles with 8 or 9 facts/ideas trying to solve something that’s when I pause and make two smaller problems and then I can get through it. Unfortunately there is no “fault” signal to engage the exception handler, I usually have to figure it out the hard way.
  - stevenjgarner 4y ago
    Fascinating. First search came up with the 5-9 STM slots [0], together with a STM duration between 15 and 30 seconds and encoding that is primarily acoustic, even translating visual information into sounds. The STM duration seems way short given the nature of most software design problems. Is the implication that we reload the data that often when we keep at something? > I pause and make two smaller problems I am assuming that is deliberate/intentional and not subliminal? If so, do you have any kind of mental algorithm for breaking things down? [0] https://www.simplypsychology.org/short-term-memory.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/short-term-memory.html

kayamon 4y ago

I do that a lot when thinking, always have. I learned later in life that I have celiac disease and in hindsight I believe that to be related.

stevenjgarner 4y ago
Are you suggesting that lack of correct nutrition might contribute to the "spacing out"? Clearly adequate quality nutrition (especially enough protein) is the basis of cogent thought. I've ordered the Viome gut microbiome test, and will be interested to see if anything emerges that is known to effect brain health.

simonblack 4y ago

That state has several names: "Flow" or "In the Zone". It's when you have a whole, interlocking bunch of ideas in your head at once and can visualise how they work together. It often takes an hour or more to reach that state. Sometimes many hours can pass 'in a flash' while in it. Its a common situation. And a famous depiction: https://heeris.id.au/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-interrupt-a-programmer/ https://heeris.id.au/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-interrupt...