13 ms·

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromp

by kromem 4y ago

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome they really want and provide a respectful and humane exit for those that clinically and chronically find living unbearable. I'm not sure that the most ethical approach to life is forcing people to continue with it against their will, it is clearly not working, and by pushing the pursuit of death underground we're likely missing tens of thousands of people each year who would turn away from that downward spiral through treatment. The people I knew that eventually committed suicide due to chronic depression spent many years thinking about it - a year waiting list for a state authorized humane option I'm sure would have been fine with any of them. But the ones that committed suicide in response to temporary circumstances didn't have any outlet other than admitting the intent to commit a crime and facing the social and economic consequences of that being outed. Even the number of stories I've heard from survivors about the regret as soon as it was too late to take back is harrowing. I'd have to wonder how many push the button for the nitrogen chamber (the likely method for state authorized suicide) only to regret it in the last moment where someone could successfully abort the procedure to save them. The low level of repeat attempts would be promising for the availability of "suicide with emergency break" alone. The religious puritanism surrounding suicide has doomed us to adopt policies and attitudes towards it as a society that probably do more harm than good.

TechBro8615 4y ago
No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religious in any way, but the ideas you suggest in your comment make me deeply uncomfortable, because they strike me as the ultimate betrayal of the miracle of random chance that led to our existence, with an almost lackadaisical disregard for human suffering, to the point of systemizing the process of ignoring it.
- sovnade 4y ago
  If someone has lost their motivation to live, then there could be many reasons for that. Society failure? Maybe. Could also be terminal illness, chemical imbalances, PTSD, or other things that are untreatable or uncurable.
  - rectang 4y ago
    Absolutist opposition to suicide no matter how prolonged or severe the suffering is right up there with torture as to why humans are by far the most savage and monstrous animal species. Lions slowly munching on their prey alive over several hours have nothing on humans who arrange for intolerable suffering to extend over years.
    - TechBro8615 4y ago
      I don't have absolutist opposition to suicide. But what are we gonna do, criminalize it? That would be literally the most unenforceable law. That doesn't mean we should facilitate the act of suicide.
      - morsch 4y ago
        Suicide is illegal in some jurisdictions. It matters more than you seem to think, because there's prosecution of attempted suicide as well as of assisting suicide (which can also be illegal if suicide itself is not).
- throwntoday 4y ago
  Even with a loving community, there are those that just want to check out. Often they have trauma that is insurmountable. I am totally against suicide, but I thank God I'm not in a position today where it feels like my best choice. I've been on that ledge, but what it would do to my family, and fear of divine retribution kept me here long enough to realize my problems had solutions. Religion does have its merits, namely the belief that all life is valuable, and no one is beyond saving.
throwaway988 4y ago
With respect to the button in the nitrogen chamber, I doubt anyone experiences regret for pushing in their last few moments. That seems like more of a literary device. I think "relief" would be the common emotion in practice. For myself, I'm no longer suicidal, but I don't want to be reincarnated, I don't want to go to heaven (and obviously not hell), and I simply don't want to wake up anywhere at all after I die. An endless, dreamless sleep is what I hope for. I cannot imagine how awful immortality would be in practice. Death, in due time, is a blessing.
- throwaway742 4y ago
  I have expressed this sentiment on here before. Immortality is my nightmare. I find it mildly amusing that some people seek it as a goal.
starkd 4y ago
Call me a puritan, but I'm pretty sure just giving people a way to readily kill themselves is not the way to address the problem. You do the exact opposite of that. Some things are absolutes. This is one of them.
- tenacious_tuna 4y ago
  I think it's remarkably reductionist to frame OP as "just giving people a way to readily kill themselves." They went to some lengths to stress how it wouldn't in fact be "readily" available, but a lengthy process with many avenues in which people could constructively offer an alternative to whatever the person's problem might be. I think it's a very similar approach to drugs in certain countries: you decriminalize them, in some cases provide government-funded drugs, provide places with trained medical staff for people to do their drugs in, and provide excellent addiction counseling. If they overdose, there's medical staff. If the drugs are government-provided, then they're pure and not cut with problematic substances. If the person wants assistance with the addiction, they don't have a criminal record, don't have to contend with an erratic supply while they wean off / switch to something else, and have lots of non-judgemental support. I think it's quite reasonable to take a similar approach with suicide: de-stigmatize it so it's possible to talk to people constructively, and very likely engage with many for whom there's a better path. Simultaneously, provide a way for people to gracefully exit life when that truly is the best option, instead of (for example) wasting away in a hospital in pain.
  - throwaway742 4y ago
    I have personally experienced in the past (not now I am not a danger to myself or others) an inability to accurately discuss my current state of mind with my doctor out of a fear I would be involuntarily deprived of my liberty. Most people don't want to be locked up, but it serves neither party when you have a fear of discussing your actual symptoms.
- troyvit 4y ago
  Really? I think that kind of thinking is what has allowed > 7 billion people to run rampant over the earth, screwing up everything they see and just generally turning it into the sinking cesspool that makes so many people want to kill themselves to begin with. There's nothing absolute about human life except that it's a net negative for the planet unlike any other life here.
Lammy 4y ago
> state authorized suicide IMO there's no way this would ever become any sort of common occurrence, because the state would never willingly give up its human capital on that scale. "Again, when a man in violation of the law harms another (otherwise than in retaliation) voluntarily, he acts unjustly, and a voluntary agent is one who knows both the person he is affecting by his action and the instrument he is using; and he who through anger voluntarily stabs himself does this contrary to the right rule of life, and this the law does not allow; therefore he is acting unjustly. But towards whom? Surely towards the state, not towards himself. For he suffers voluntarily, but no one is voluntarily treated unjustly. This is also the reason why the state punishes; a certain loss of civil rights attaches to the man who destroys himself, on the ground that he is treating the state unjustly." — Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics Book Ⅴ http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.5.v.html http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.5.v.html
- cbracken 4y ago
  Some countries [1], [2] provide government-sanctioned medically assisted death for qualifying patients. What makes you believe these sorts of programmes can't be adopted more widely? [1]: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi... [2]: https://exit.ch/en/englisch/engagement-of-exit/our-end-of-life-care/ https://exit.ch/en/englisch/engagement-of-exit/our-end-of-li...
  - bobsmooth 4y ago
    Unfounded cynicism.
- SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
  > the state would never willingly give up its human capital on that scale The same state that sends its youth off to die in wars? Or that executes them when it so chooses?
  - bongobingo1 4y ago
throwaway742 4y ago
Thank you.
smallerfish 4y ago
I'm not sure I agree with "lengthy waiting period". For somebody with a terminal disease, maybe it's simply too much to force them to wait 6-12 months. On the other hand, nobody wants to be "assisted" by impatient relatives, so the system would need robust checks and balances. But, yes, in many cases having access to painless euthanisia would be far more humane that what many societies currently force people to experience.

by kromem 4y ago

TechBro8615 4y ago

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religious in any way, but the ideas you suggest in your comment make me deeply uncomfortable, because they strike me as the ultimate betrayal of the miracle of random chance that led to our existence, with an almost lackadaisical disregard for human suffering, to the point of systemizing the process of ignoring it.

sovnade 4y ago
If someone has lost their motivation to live, then there could be many reasons for that. Society failure? Maybe. Could also be terminal illness, chemical imbalances, PTSD, or other things that are untreatable or uncurable.
- rectang 4y ago
  Absolutist opposition to suicide no matter how prolonged or severe the suffering is right up there with torture as to why humans are by far the most savage and monstrous animal species. Lions slowly munching on their prey alive over several hours have nothing on humans who arrange for intolerable suffering to extend over years.
  - TechBro8615 4y ago
    I don't have absolutist opposition to suicide. But what are we gonna do, criminalize it? That would be literally the most unenforceable law. That doesn't mean we should facilitate the act of suicide.
    - morsch 4y ago
      Suicide is illegal in some jurisdictions. It matters more than you seem to think, because there's prosecution of attempted suicide as well as of assisting suicide (which can also be illegal if suicide itself is not).
throwntoday 4y ago
Even with a loving community, there are those that just want to check out. Often they have trauma that is insurmountable. I am totally against suicide, but I thank God I'm not in a position today where it feels like my best choice. I've been on that ledge, but what it would do to my family, and fear of divine retribution kept me here long enough to realize my problems had solutions. Religion does have its merits, namely the belief that all life is valuable, and no one is beyond saving.

throwaway988 4y ago

With respect to the button in the nitrogen chamber, I doubt anyone experiences regret for pushing in their last few moments. That seems like more of a literary device. I think "relief" would be the common emotion in practice. For myself, I'm no longer suicidal, but I don't want to be reincarnated, I don't want to go to heaven (and obviously not hell), and I simply don't want to wake up anywhere at all after I die. An endless, dreamless sleep is what I hope for. I cannot imagine how awful immortality would be in practice. Death, in due time, is a blessing.

throwaway742 4y ago
I have expressed this sentiment on here before. Immortality is my nightmare. I find it mildly amusing that some people seek it as a goal.

starkd 4y ago

Call me a puritan, but I'm pretty sure just giving people a way to readily kill themselves is not the way to address the problem. You do the exact opposite of that. Some things are absolutes. This is one of them.

tenacious_tuna 4y ago
I think it's remarkably reductionist to frame OP as "just giving people a way to readily kill themselves." They went to some lengths to stress how it wouldn't in fact be "readily" available, but a lengthy process with many avenues in which people could constructively offer an alternative to whatever the person's problem might be. I think it's a very similar approach to drugs in certain countries: you decriminalize them, in some cases provide government-funded drugs, provide places with trained medical staff for people to do their drugs in, and provide excellent addiction counseling. If they overdose, there's medical staff. If the drugs are government-provided, then they're pure and not cut with problematic substances. If the person wants assistance with the addiction, they don't have a criminal record, don't have to contend with an erratic supply while they wean off / switch to something else, and have lots of non-judgemental support. I think it's quite reasonable to take a similar approach with suicide: de-stigmatize it so it's possible to talk to people constructively, and very likely engage with many for whom there's a better path. Simultaneously, provide a way for people to gracefully exit life when that truly is the best option, instead of (for example) wasting away in a hospital in pain.
- throwaway742 4y ago
  I have personally experienced in the past (not now I am not a danger to myself or others) an inability to accurately discuss my current state of mind with my doctor out of a fear I would be involuntarily deprived of my liberty. Most people don't want to be locked up, but it serves neither party when you have a fear of discussing your actual symptoms.
troyvit 4y ago
Really? I think that kind of thinking is what has allowed > 7 billion people to run rampant over the earth, screwing up everything they see and just generally turning it into the sinking cesspool that makes so many people want to kill themselves to begin with. There's nothing absolute about human life except that it's a net negative for the planet unlike any other life here.

Lammy 4y ago

> state authorized suicide IMO there's no way this would ever become any sort of common occurrence, because the state would never willingly give up its human capital on that scale. "Again, when a man in violation of the law harms another (otherwise than in retaliation) voluntarily, he acts unjustly, and a voluntary agent is one who knows both the person he is affecting by his action and the instrument he is using; and he who through anger voluntarily stabs himself does this contrary to the right rule of life, and this the law does not allow; therefore he is acting unjustly. But towards whom? Surely towards the state, not towards himself. For he suffers voluntarily, but no one is voluntarily treated unjustly. This is also the reason why the state punishes; a certain loss of civil rights attaches to the man who destroys himself, on the ground that he is treating the state unjustly." — Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics Book Ⅴ http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.5.v.html http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.5.v.html

cbracken 4y ago
Some countries [1], [2] provide government-sanctioned medically assisted death for qualifying patients. What makes you believe these sorts of programmes can't be adopted more widely? [1]: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi... [2]: https://exit.ch/en/englisch/engagement-of-exit/our-end-of-life-care/ https://exit.ch/en/englisch/engagement-of-exit/our-end-of-li...
- bobsmooth 4y ago
  Unfounded cynicism.
SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
> the state would never willingly give up its human capital on that scale The same state that sends its youth off to die in wars? Or that executes them when it so chooses?
- bongobingo1 4y ago

throwaway742 4y ago

Thank you.

smallerfish 4y ago

I'm not sure I agree with "lengthy waiting period". For somebody with a terminal disease, maybe it's simply too much to force them to wait 6-12 months. On the other hand, nobody wants to be "assisted" by impatient relatives, so the system would need robust checks and balances. But, yes, in many cases having access to painless euthanisia would be far more humane that what many societies currently force people to experience.