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Absolutely those things can happen, and they should. For example, imagine if an airplane pilot or anyone in a position of being responsible for a mass number o

by xwdv 4y ago

Absolutely those things can happen, and they should. For example, imagine if an airplane pilot or anyone in a position of being responsible for a mass number of lives has previously called into suicide hotlines. Would you feel secure knowing the pilot of your plane once exhibited suicidal tendencies? I doubt it. Any bits of data we can collect to make accurate assessments should be collected.

stemlord 4y ago
I think the type of background check necessary for something so life-critical like piloting commercial airliners should be considered distinctly different from the kind that any other normal job should involve
zahma 4y ago
This isn't a reasonable blanket policy. While I definitely would feel encouraged knowing my pilot has not displayed suicidal ideation, I do not support tracking writ large. For example, resident physicians are known for being pushed to work 80+ hour weeks. Would any of them ever officially admit to having mental health issues? Hell no, and that's a problem from an ethics perspective and a declining level of healthcare, not to mention tragically ironic to boot.
everfree 4y ago
> Would you feel secure knowing the pilot of your plane once exhibited suicidal tendencies? I doubt it. I really don't care, to be honest. As long as the problem has been fixed through major changes to lifestyle and/or medication, plus enough time has passed to ensure that the person is stable, the fact that they once called a hotline is irrelevant. I might not be as vehemently against the collection of this data if there were a strict retention limit written into law, perhaps 3-5 years, alongside a solid plan to properly enforce that limit and to keep records confidential. As written, your comment implies that people can never change and situations can never improve. People regularly change their lives drastically, especially young adults whose brains are not even fully done developing. > Any bits of data we can collect to make accurate assessments should be collected. I doubt that the fact that someone called into a hotline twenty years ago would allow anyone to make an accurate assessment as to their fitness to fly today. It would likely be used as a tool of oppression, and it would make people think twice before choosing to risk their future career prospects by calling into the hotline in the first place. Permanently barring hotline callers from becoming pilots makes about the same amount of sense as permanently barring people who have ever had a broken arm from becoming pilots.
- xwdv 4y ago
  You seem strangely empathetic. Perhaps you have made calls to these hotlines or wrestled with complex emotions as well.
  - everfree 4y ago
    This is the first time anyone has called it "strange" that I am an empathetic person. Perhaps many people have not gone through (and recovered from) enough hardship to properly develop their sense of empathy like I have. Better bar me from becoming a pilot, quick.
autoexec 4y ago
> Any bits of data we can collect to make accurate assessments should be collected. This is the kind of thinking that got us into this mess. The data being collected may not be accurate, may not be interpreted correctly, and may not even be useful, but fearful people like you will happily use it for a tiny sliver of peace of mind. Lets say the pilot on your next flight did call the suicide hotline 15 years ago after his wife and child were killed in a car wreak. Would that make him more likely to be a danger for you today than the pilot on your last flight who was currently suicidal but never called the hotline? Lets say the pilot on your flight wasn't just going through a rough time 15 years ago, but was actively feeling suicidal on the day of your flight. Is it more likely that he would also be a mass murder who wanted to kill everyone on the plane, or is is more likely that he would kill himself later that day while alone in a hotel room at your destination city? Thoughtcrime is a dangerous thing and our algorithms aren't so good at predicting human behavior that we should support handing out extrajudicial punishments to people based on what they might do. Those are things you should fear far more than what the mental health history of your pilot might suggest.
marssaxman 4y ago
Imagine if an airline pilot or anyone in a position of being responsible for a mass number of lives has felt suicidal and considered calling into a suicide hotline. Would they feel secure knowing their call will create a permanent record of suicidal tendencies, limiting their career for years to come? I doubt it. Any bits of data we collect to make accurate assessments will encourage suffering people to withdraw further and remain silent instead of getting help.

by xwdv 4y ago

stemlord 4y ago

I think the type of background check necessary for something so life-critical like piloting commercial airliners should be considered distinctly different from the kind that any other normal job should involve

zahma 4y ago

This isn't a reasonable blanket policy. While I definitely would feel encouraged knowing my pilot has not displayed suicidal ideation, I do not support tracking writ large. For example, resident physicians are known for being pushed to work 80+ hour weeks. Would any of them ever officially admit to having mental health issues? Hell no, and that's a problem from an ethics perspective and a declining level of healthcare, not to mention tragically ironic to boot.

everfree 4y ago

> Would you feel secure knowing the pilot of your plane once exhibited suicidal tendencies? I doubt it. I really don't care, to be honest. As long as the problem has been fixed through major changes to lifestyle and/or medication, plus enough time has passed to ensure that the person is stable, the fact that they once called a hotline is irrelevant. I might not be as vehemently against the collection of this data if there were a strict retention limit written into law, perhaps 3-5 years, alongside a solid plan to properly enforce that limit and to keep records confidential. As written, your comment implies that people can never change and situations can never improve. People regularly change their lives drastically, especially young adults whose brains are not even fully done developing. > Any bits of data we can collect to make accurate assessments should be collected. I doubt that the fact that someone called into a hotline twenty years ago would allow anyone to make an accurate assessment as to their fitness to fly today. It would likely be used as a tool of oppression, and it would make people think twice before choosing to risk their future career prospects by calling into the hotline in the first place. Permanently barring hotline callers from becoming pilots makes about the same amount of sense as permanently barring people who have ever had a broken arm from becoming pilots.

xwdv 4y ago
You seem strangely empathetic. Perhaps you have made calls to these hotlines or wrestled with complex emotions as well.
- everfree 4y ago
  This is the first time anyone has called it "strange" that I am an empathetic person. Perhaps many people have not gone through (and recovered from) enough hardship to properly develop their sense of empathy like I have. Better bar me from becoming a pilot, quick.

autoexec 4y ago

> Any bits of data we can collect to make accurate assessments should be collected. This is the kind of thinking that got us into this mess. The data being collected may not be accurate, may not be interpreted correctly, and may not even be useful, but fearful people like you will happily use it for a tiny sliver of peace of mind. Lets say the pilot on your next flight did call the suicide hotline 15 years ago after his wife and child were killed in a car wreak. Would that make him more likely to be a danger for you today than the pilot on your last flight who was currently suicidal but never called the hotline? Lets say the pilot on your flight wasn't just going through a rough time 15 years ago, but was actively feeling suicidal on the day of your flight. Is it more likely that he would also be a mass murder who wanted to kill everyone on the plane, or is is more likely that he would kill himself later that day while alone in a hotel room at your destination city? Thoughtcrime is a dangerous thing and our algorithms aren't so good at predicting human behavior that we should support handing out extrajudicial punishments to people based on what they might do. Those are things you should fear far more than what the mental health history of your pilot might suggest.

marssaxman 4y ago

Imagine if an airline pilot or anyone in a position of being responsible for a mass number of lives has felt suicidal and considered calling into a suicide hotline. Would they feel secure knowing their call will create a permanent record of suicidal tendencies, limiting their career for years to come? I doubt it. Any bits of data we collect to make accurate assessments will encourage suffering people to withdraw further and remain silent instead of getting help.