3 ms·

If you can't see how the two examples you cite are problematic, i don't know what to tell you. There's a difference between protest and sedition, and the Catal

by sofixa 4y ago

If you can't see how the two examples you cite are problematic, i don't know what to tell you. There's a difference between protest and sedition, and the Catalan independence movement went full in on treason. The second is doxxy, so it is understandable to an extent.

vkou 4y ago
> the Catalan independence movement went full in on treason There's a few hundred million mainlanders, and the entire leadership of the CCP who feel the same way about Hong Kong. Perhaps Madrid and Beijing should compare notes?
- kmonsen 4y ago
  I support the Catalan movement as I believe in all people’s right to self determination but that is fundamentally different. Catalonia does not have a legal right to just break free from Spain. It would also be difficult for any country if the richest region could break free at will. On the other hand Hong Kong has a legal right for local rules for at least 50 years after the handover in 1997. That treaty was broken last year. So legally Spain is in the right and China is wrong.
  - vkou 4y ago
    Legality is meaningless when there was no meeting of minds when the law was drafted. Catalonia's current situation was created by an authoritarian, fascist government. The law in question was drafted without the consent of the governed, and is thus illegitimate, if it does not have ongoing consent of its constituents.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      > Catalonia's current situation was created by an authoritarian, fascist government No, significantly more authority was devolved to the region from the democratic governments following Franco. However there was no point in history where Catalonia breaking away was an explicitly allowed option (of course).
    - fvv 4y ago
      and current situation in HK has what you are saying should be a requirement for a law (let alone an act of force ) : the "without the consent of the governed," you are citing..
    - kmonsen 4y ago
      I think legality still matters. But more importantly it is a joke to compare the situation in Catalonia with that of Hong Kong. It’s not like we see trains full of people on the way to torture in concentration camps leaving Barcelona.
User23 4y ago
> There's a difference between protest and sedition Is there? Please elaborate, because to me it merely looks like a matter of perspective.
- sofixa 4y ago
  Protesting is within the legal framework of the country. In France, i have the right to protest under certain conditions (organisers have to receive an authorisation from the police on the route the protest will take, things have to be kept civil, e.g. no running around burning cars). I do not not have the right to start an independence movement and/or rebellion in Brittany. So it's not the perspective, it's the legality of goals and methods. For instance in Russia, you can't protest the war in Ukraine, so going on the streets about it isn't "just protesting", one is willingly breaking the law for the cause.

by sofixa 4y ago

vkou 4y ago

> the Catalan independence movement went full in on treason There's a few hundred million mainlanders, and the entire leadership of the CCP who feel the same way about Hong Kong. Perhaps Madrid and Beijing should compare notes?

kmonsen 4y ago
I support the Catalan movement as I believe in all people’s right to self determination but that is fundamentally different. Catalonia does not have a legal right to just break free from Spain. It would also be difficult for any country if the richest region could break free at will. On the other hand Hong Kong has a legal right for local rules for at least 50 years after the handover in 1997. That treaty was broken last year. So legally Spain is in the right and China is wrong.
- vkou 4y ago
  Legality is meaningless when there was no meeting of minds when the law was drafted. Catalonia's current situation was created by an authoritarian, fascist government. The law in question was drafted without the consent of the governed, and is thus illegitimate, if it does not have ongoing consent of its constituents.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > Catalonia's current situation was created by an authoritarian, fascist government No, significantly more authority was devolved to the region from the democratic governments following Franco. However there was no point in history where Catalonia breaking away was an explicitly allowed option (of course).
  - fvv 4y ago
    and current situation in HK has what you are saying should be a requirement for a law (let alone an act of force ) : the "without the consent of the governed," you are citing..
  - kmonsen 4y ago
    I think legality still matters. But more importantly it is a joke to compare the situation in Catalonia with that of Hong Kong. It’s not like we see trains full of people on the way to torture in concentration camps leaving Barcelona.

User23 4y ago

> There's a difference between protest and sedition Is there? Please elaborate, because to me it merely looks like a matter of perspective.

sofixa 4y ago
Protesting is within the legal framework of the country. In France, i have the right to protest under certain conditions (organisers have to receive an authorisation from the police on the route the protest will take, things have to be kept civil, e.g. no running around burning cars). I do not not have the right to start an independence movement and/or rebellion in Brittany. So it's not the perspective, it's the legality of goals and methods. For instance in Russia, you can't protest the war in Ukraine, so going on the streets about it isn't "just protesting", one is willingly breaking the law for the cause.