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I would disagree here. The incentives are quite different, as there are many foreign governments who are actively hostile and use the internet for extremely eff

I would disagree here. The incentives are quite different, as there are many foreign governments who are actively hostile and use the internet for extremely effective psyops. Social media is the #1 place for psyops with great success.

autoexec 4y ago
> The incentives are quite different, as there are many foreign governments who are actively hostile and use the internet for extremely effective psyops. How does this differentiate them from domestic governments exactly?
- azinman2 4y ago
  For obvious reasons: they want to disrupt society, drop placement in the world, cause internal fractions that divert attention abroad to domestic strive, actively harm populations by spreading dangerous information, move fringes into the center to replace those who are effective with those who are not, cause macro economic harm, replace narratives of foreign adversaries to make them seem friendly or sow doubt that they are in fact doing bad things, rewrite narratives with their value systems instead, destabilize countries and cause civil war, cast doubt on things like democracy to shift the world to autocratic rule, etc etc. Your question is phrased in a way that would be exactly the kinds of things that foreign adversaries want to achieve online: make people hate their local government so they throw their baby out with the bath water, meanwhile the foreign adversary keeps power with an iron fist and censorship so they don’t suffer the same consequences.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    > For obvious reasons: they want to disrupt society, drop placement in the world, cause internal fractions that divert attention abroad to domestic strive, actively harm populations by spreading dangerous information, Dd we really need foreign governments for this? They do it, but we get plenty of it right here at home. Covid made that plain enough, but so have decades of attacks on education and the middle class. In the US we even have government investigations into our own government for wanting to destabilize the country, cast doubt on our democracy and promote civil war. I'm not saying foreign governments don't play these kinds of games too, but if pointing out my own nations very real problems and deficiencies makes me sound like foreign adversaries maybe those foreign governments aren't the biggest problem we have and we'd be better served cleaning house and looking at the problems within before pointing fingers at folks outside.
    - azinman2 4y ago
      First of all, why would you want additional malfeasance? This is indefensible. It’s like saying with all the police shootings, who cares if foreign army’s are going around and shooting people. Covid made plain that psyops work extremely well. A huge amount of disinformation came that way, in addition to a domestic audience that was very happy to incorporate it. Having a mistrust of authority in the first place makes this frictionless because it means you trust whatever you read online instead of your local authorities. That makes psyops easy peasy. You can both not want foreign meddling and want to improve your local situation at the same time. Geopolitical issues are never a serial process, and they never end. There will never be a point where everyone agrees the domestic issues are now “fixed and everything is perfect” so now we can focus on the constant foreign attacks. That’s a false start. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. When you burn it all down you’re just left with ashes, and whatever the replacement is almost always cheaper and worse.
benreesman 4y ago
You can safely assume that any big company in a G8 country is spilling data to the spook arm of the other 7.
- azinman2 4y ago
  Perhaps but it’s different when it’s an ally and intelligence gathering to face larger threats. That’s not the same thing as trying to bring down another society at large.

autoexec 4y ago

> The incentives are quite different, as there are many foreign governments who are actively hostile and use the internet for extremely effective psyops. How does this differentiate them from domestic governments exactly?

azinman2 4y ago
For obvious reasons: they want to disrupt society, drop placement in the world, cause internal fractions that divert attention abroad to domestic strive, actively harm populations by spreading dangerous information, move fringes into the center to replace those who are effective with those who are not, cause macro economic harm, replace narratives of foreign adversaries to make them seem friendly or sow doubt that they are in fact doing bad things, rewrite narratives with their value systems instead, destabilize countries and cause civil war, cast doubt on things like democracy to shift the world to autocratic rule, etc etc. Your question is phrased in a way that would be exactly the kinds of things that foreign adversaries want to achieve online: make people hate their local government so they throw their baby out with the bath water, meanwhile the foreign adversary keeps power with an iron fist and censorship so they don’t suffer the same consequences.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > For obvious reasons: they want to disrupt society, drop placement in the world, cause internal fractions that divert attention abroad to domestic strive, actively harm populations by spreading dangerous information, Dd we really need foreign governments for this? They do it, but we get plenty of it right here at home. Covid made that plain enough, but so have decades of attacks on education and the middle class. In the US we even have government investigations into our own government for wanting to destabilize the country, cast doubt on our democracy and promote civil war. I'm not saying foreign governments don't play these kinds of games too, but if pointing out my own nations very real problems and deficiencies makes me sound like foreign adversaries maybe those foreign governments aren't the biggest problem we have and we'd be better served cleaning house and looking at the problems within before pointing fingers at folks outside.
  - azinman2 4y ago
    First of all, why would you want additional malfeasance? This is indefensible. It’s like saying with all the police shootings, who cares if foreign army’s are going around and shooting people. Covid made plain that psyops work extremely well. A huge amount of disinformation came that way, in addition to a domestic audience that was very happy to incorporate it. Having a mistrust of authority in the first place makes this frictionless because it means you trust whatever you read online instead of your local authorities. That makes psyops easy peasy. You can both not want foreign meddling and want to improve your local situation at the same time. Geopolitical issues are never a serial process, and they never end. There will never be a point where everyone agrees the domestic issues are now “fixed and everything is perfect” so now we can focus on the constant foreign attacks. That’s a false start. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. When you burn it all down you’re just left with ashes, and whatever the replacement is almost always cheaper and worse.

benreesman 4y ago

You can safely assume that any big company in a G8 country is spilling data to the spook arm of the other 7.

azinman2 4y ago
Perhaps but it’s different when it’s an ally and intelligence gathering to face larger threats. That’s not the same thing as trying to bring down another society at large.