5 ms·

This somehow just again sets into perspective what "old" means in different countries. I live in a house older than the US at the moment, and it's not even some

This somehow just again sets into perspective what "old" means in different countries. I live in a house older than the US at the moment, and it's not even something special, compared to churches which are closer to Caesar than the founding of the US.

AlotOfReading 4y ago
It's a cultural thing that most Americans simply don't identify with or think about history prior to British/American colonization. There are still people living in medieval-era houses in the US and ruins that make Rome look young, but they don't occupy anyone's mindspace when it comes to how they think of age.
- mgraczyk 4y ago
  Hopefully this is a joke? There are no structures in the US built prior to 1000ad, and the oldest structures built by indigenous people were abandoned long before European contact, because of deforestation.
  - AlotOfReading 4y ago
    So for context, I've literally seen/worked on structures older than that. I'll format this as a list to avoid a giant wall of text. * Plenty of structures were built prior to 1100CE. You can't build a freeway in Tucson without digging up an late archaic (~2300-1500 BCE) pithouse, as an example. * Plenty of indigenous structures have centuries of continuous inhabitation. Taos is a good example, having a single structure that's been inhabited since the 13th century. Other communities are older (e.g. Oraibi dates from ~1150), but don't have extant usable structures from those early days. * Indigenous structures were not abandoned prior to European contact, let alone because of deforestation. Did you autocorrect from "disease" (which would also be mistaken, but less so)? Very simplified statement here because this is a topic that could fill a library. Happy to talk more on it.
    - mgraczyk 4y ago
      Can you give me an example of a "structure" in the present day US that was built prior to 1000 AD? I'm not talking about a pit underground, which is not a "structure". Can you give me an example of a "medieval-era houses in the US" that somebody lives in today? The ones you mentioned were built after the middle ages, your dates are not right and describe the time the settlement was created, not the time the structures were built. Which Taos structure has been inhabited since the 13th century? The Taos pueblo structures standing today were built around 1400, not the middle ages, not the 13th century. The Oraibi _settlement_ has been inhabited for centuries. The structures were built in the 17th century, not the middle ages, not 1150.
      - AlotOfReading 4y ago
        Generally the "medieval period" extends from sometime in the first few centuries CE to as late as the end of the 16th century. Obviously this is being used in the same informal sense that I'd have talking with friends, rather than a specific technical sense that would be more regionally appropriate. The 13th century when the earliest kivas and walls at Taos Pueblo are well-agreed to be dated. Oral histories date it rather earlier, but I'm being conservative. I have pretty terrible internet access right now, so I can't link anything on those dates, but I'm fairly sure that's how the UN filings date it at least, though I couldn't tell you whether those apply to the north or south houses specifically. Re: oraibi, I tried to make it clear that I was talking about the town itself rather than specific structures within it. The earliest structures are below the cliff, not above where the modern town is. That move happened in the 17th and 18th centuries to make it more defensible. As far as I'm aware, most of the extant buildings are 20th century at the earliest. As for "structure", a pithouse is a structure and a primarily aboveground one at that. The name refers to the fact that they're dug into the ground for thermal and flooring reasons. The late archaic ones in the Tucson area along the Santa Cruz river were often built alongside small irrigation canals and house groups often had low walls around them. Again, can't link, but there are experimental reconstructions of Pueblo I era pithouses that you can look at pictures of. They're "similar enough" to be worth looking at, even though there are meaningful reasons they're part of different archeological periods.
  - WillPostForFood 4y ago
    You have places like Acoma Pueblo in New Mexico. It’s construction date is disputes, but is at least 1000ad, and it wasn’t abandoned before European contact.
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    There are definitely structures in the US that were built prior to 1000AD. For example the first 4 stories of Pueblo Bonito were built around 850. Some of the pueblos that were built around 1000 years ago are still used (e.g. Taos Pueblo, although most of the buildings have been retrofitted with modern conveniences like doors)
    - mgraczyk 4y ago
      I would Pueblo Bonito a "ruin", not a "structure" that somebody could live in. The Taos Pueblo structures were built ~1400. Can you give an example of a "medieval-era structure" that somebody is living in today?
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    There's an "and" in the parent comment. Both these phrases are true: "There are still people living in medieval-era houses in the US" [There are] "ruins that make Rome look young" The Mediaeval period in Europe extends from the 5th to the late 15th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages The Taos Pueblo has been continuously inhabited since the 13th century, if not before. This qualifies to satisfy the truth criteria of the first phrase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taos_Pueblo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taos_Pueblo Note that the second claim refers to ruins and not continuous inhabitation. I'm not a specialist in North American indigenous cultures, but am aware that there are signs of human inhabitation at sites such as Bandelier (NM) dating to 10kya, and elsehwere cliff and/or pueblo dwellings dating to several thousand years BCE. Both would make Rome look old. Heading further south, the earliest Mayan villages date to 2,000 BCE, again pre-dating Rome. Cities emerged in the period 750--500 BCE, roughly contemporaneously with the agreed origins of Rome (753 BCE), and well before the rise of the Roman Republic (509--27 BCE) or Empire (27 BCE -- ~480 CE (Western)). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_of_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_of_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire Cholula, Mexico dates to 2000 BCE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholula_(Mesoamerican_site) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholula_(Mesoamerican_site)
    - mgraczyk 4y ago
      It's possible there are a handful of houses at one site with some structural walls built around 1400 that are currently inhabited. There's no direct evidence for that claim except oral tradition and reports from 140 years later. Claiming that "There are still people living in medieval-era houses in the US" is misleading, and a lack of awareness of these houses is not noteworthy. The reason Americans don't think about old buildings the way Europeans do is that there aren't any anywhere close to where most Americans live, and anything older than 600 years requires an extensive intentional search to find. It's not a lack of awareness, as the GP implies.
      - dredmorbius 4y ago
        I've presented documented facts. You're countering with opinion. Just sayin'.

AlotOfReading 4y ago

It's a cultural thing that most Americans simply don't identify with or think about history prior to British/American colonization. There are still people living in medieval-era houses in the US and ruins that make Rome look young, but they don't occupy anyone's mindspace when it comes to how they think of age.

mgraczyk 4y ago
Hopefully this is a joke? There are no structures in the US built prior to 1000ad, and the oldest structures built by indigenous people were abandoned long before European contact, because of deforestation.
- AlotOfReading 4y ago
  So for context, I've literally seen/worked on structures older than that. I'll format this as a list to avoid a giant wall of text. * Plenty of structures were built prior to 1100CE. You can't build a freeway in Tucson without digging up an late archaic (~2300-1500 BCE) pithouse, as an example. * Plenty of indigenous structures have centuries of continuous inhabitation. Taos is a good example, having a single structure that's been inhabited since the 13th century. Other communities are older (e.g. Oraibi dates from ~1150), but don't have extant usable structures from those early days. * Indigenous structures were not abandoned prior to European contact, let alone because of deforestation. Did you autocorrect from "disease" (which would also be mistaken, but less so)? Very simplified statement here because this is a topic that could fill a library. Happy to talk more on it.
  - mgraczyk 4y ago
    Can you give me an example of a "structure" in the present day US that was built prior to 1000 AD? I'm not talking about a pit underground, which is not a "structure". Can you give me an example of a "medieval-era houses in the US" that somebody lives in today? The ones you mentioned were built after the middle ages, your dates are not right and describe the time the settlement was created, not the time the structures were built. Which Taos structure has been inhabited since the 13th century? The Taos pueblo structures standing today were built around 1400, not the middle ages, not the 13th century. The Oraibi _settlement_ has been inhabited for centuries. The structures were built in the 17th century, not the middle ages, not 1150.
    - AlotOfReading 4y ago
      Generally the "medieval period" extends from sometime in the first few centuries CE to as late as the end of the 16th century. Obviously this is being used in the same informal sense that I'd have talking with friends, rather than a specific technical sense that would be more regionally appropriate. The 13th century when the earliest kivas and walls at Taos Pueblo are well-agreed to be dated. Oral histories date it rather earlier, but I'm being conservative. I have pretty terrible internet access right now, so I can't link anything on those dates, but I'm fairly sure that's how the UN filings date it at least, though I couldn't tell you whether those apply to the north or south houses specifically. Re: oraibi, I tried to make it clear that I was talking about the town itself rather than specific structures within it. The earliest structures are below the cliff, not above where the modern town is. That move happened in the 17th and 18th centuries to make it more defensible. As far as I'm aware, most of the extant buildings are 20th century at the earliest. As for "structure", a pithouse is a structure and a primarily aboveground one at that. The name refers to the fact that they're dug into the ground for thermal and flooring reasons. The late archaic ones in the Tucson area along the Santa Cruz river were often built alongside small irrigation canals and house groups often had low walls around them. Again, can't link, but there are experimental reconstructions of Pueblo I era pithouses that you can look at pictures of. They're "similar enough" to be worth looking at, even though there are meaningful reasons they're part of different archeological periods.
- WillPostForFood 4y ago
  You have places like Acoma Pueblo in New Mexico. It’s construction date is disputes, but is at least 1000ad, and it wasn’t abandoned before European contact.
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  There are definitely structures in the US that were built prior to 1000AD. For example the first 4 stories of Pueblo Bonito were built around 850. Some of the pueblos that were built around 1000 years ago are still used (e.g. Taos Pueblo, although most of the buildings have been retrofitted with modern conveniences like doors)
  - mgraczyk 4y ago
    I would Pueblo Bonito a "ruin", not a "structure" that somebody could live in. The Taos Pueblo structures were built ~1400. Can you give an example of a "medieval-era structure" that somebody is living in today?
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  There's an "and" in the parent comment. Both these phrases are true: "There are still people living in medieval-era houses in the US" [There are] "ruins that make Rome look young" The Mediaeval period in Europe extends from the 5th to the late 15th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages The Taos Pueblo has been continuously inhabited since the 13th century, if not before. This qualifies to satisfy the truth criteria of the first phrase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taos_Pueblo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taos_Pueblo Note that the second claim refers to ruins and not continuous inhabitation. I'm not a specialist in North American indigenous cultures, but am aware that there are signs of human inhabitation at sites such as Bandelier (NM) dating to 10kya, and elsehwere cliff and/or pueblo dwellings dating to several thousand years BCE. Both would make Rome look old. Heading further south, the earliest Mayan villages date to 2,000 BCE, again pre-dating Rome. Cities emerged in the period 750--500 BCE, roughly contemporaneously with the agreed origins of Rome (753 BCE), and well before the rise of the Roman Republic (509--27 BCE) or Empire (27 BCE -- ~480 CE (Western)). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_of_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_of_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire Cholula, Mexico dates to 2000 BCE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholula_(Mesoamerican_site) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholula_(Mesoamerican_site)
  - mgraczyk 4y ago
    It's possible there are a handful of houses at one site with some structural walls built around 1400 that are currently inhabited. There's no direct evidence for that claim except oral tradition and reports from 140 years later. Claiming that "There are still people living in medieval-era houses in the US" is misleading, and a lack of awareness of these houses is not noteworthy. The reason Americans don't think about old buildings the way Europeans do is that there aren't any anywhere close to where most Americans live, and anything older than 600 years requires an extensive intentional search to find. It's not a lack of awareness, as the GP implies.
    - dredmorbius 4y ago
      I've presented documented facts. You're countering with opinion. Just sayin'.