4 ms·

I know there are enormous profits to be made in China, but I wonder if American investors ever think to themselves ... by investing in this place I am strengthe

I know there are enormous profits to be made in China, but I wonder if American investors ever think to themselves ... by investing in this place I am strengthening a regime that ultimately is the enemy of my values.

vkou 4y ago
China is not at all incompatible with those values. And even if it were, that wouldn't be an issue - business interests on the whole have consistently been a strong ally of fascism and authoritarianism.
- TheMagicHorsey 4y ago
  China is compatible with democracy, a free market, and rule of law? Yeah, I think there's a reason the best and brightest in China often try to immigrate to the USA, Canada, Australia, etc. Its not for the food, believe me.
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  The current Chinese government certainly is.
  - vkou 4y ago
    Why? It keeps order, it keeps the proles from getting uppity, and it's not much in the business of wealth redistribution (unlike it's liberal democracy counterparts on the other side of the world). Likewise, business as a whole in the US (and elsewhere) has no issue supporting the more authoritarian and repressive of the two political parties. They prefer it, in fact, because of what it does for them in limiting worker and consumer rights. When you're in the upper class of society, most of the repressive rules don't personally apply to you.
    - CoastalCoder 4y ago
      > Likewise, business as a whole in the US (and elsewhere) has no issue supporting the more authoritarian and repressive of the two political parties. This is potentially the start of a boring partisan flame war. Let's not do that. The Republican and Democratic parties both have some platforms that strike outsiders as authoritarian and repressive. But debating them on HN doesn't work well IME.
      - vkou 4y ago
        I deliberately didn't name names (because in this context, it doesn't matter which is more authoritarian than the other, the statement works regardless of which side of that question you take.) My point is that business interests have no issues with authoritarianism, so long as it doesn't get in their way. If you're waiting for the S&P500 to optimize for freedom and democracy, and justice, and reasonably-priced love, you're going to be in for a very, very long wait. It actively optimizes for the comfort of its executives and shareholder value first and second, and for the rest of society not at all.
    - throwaway4aday 4y ago
      And yet Chinese citizens of all walks of life have been immigrating to my humble neck of the woods for the past decade (and they're welcome to, everyone I've met is super nice and grateful to be here) while I've heard of 0 people moving from my locale to China, I wonder why that is.
- mullen 4y ago
  I call bullshit on statements like this. You think corporations would love authoritarianism until the corporations realize that one day someone who is really close to the head authoritarian could just demand 10% of their corporation and there is nothing they can do about it. They would also realize there is a whole class of people that can do whatever they want, when ever they want, to whomever they want (As long as the other person was not above them) and there is nothing to be done about it. Corporations, while it might pain them on some level, want to exist in a free, open and democratic sociality since it gives them access to courts and people in power. In Authoritarian systems, people at the top, just take whatever they want and there is nothing to be done about it. Also, a foreign corporation is never going to have access to the higher levels of the Authoritarian government because they are foreign. Places like China don't care about foreign corporations because at the end of the day, there is nothing they can do to help the head authoritarian.
downrightmike 4y ago
As we have seen in America, big companies love fascists, because corps stand to monopolize and make tons of money.
- klipklop 4y ago
  You would think they would know better after seeing the ultimate fate of Jack Ma.
  - downrightmike 4y ago
    Ah, nah it can't happen to them, Ma was different!
Jaygles 4y ago
Merchants have no country https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0167 https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0...

vkou 4y ago

China is not at all incompatible with those values. And even if it were, that wouldn't be an issue - business interests on the whole have consistently been a strong ally of fascism and authoritarianism.

TheMagicHorsey 4y ago
China is compatible with democracy, a free market, and rule of law? Yeah, I think there's a reason the best and brightest in China often try to immigrate to the USA, Canada, Australia, etc. Its not for the food, believe me.
throwaway4aday 4y ago
The current Chinese government certainly is.
- vkou 4y ago
  Why? It keeps order, it keeps the proles from getting uppity, and it's not much in the business of wealth redistribution (unlike it's liberal democracy counterparts on the other side of the world). Likewise, business as a whole in the US (and elsewhere) has no issue supporting the more authoritarian and repressive of the two political parties. They prefer it, in fact, because of what it does for them in limiting worker and consumer rights. When you're in the upper class of society, most of the repressive rules don't personally apply to you.
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    > Likewise, business as a whole in the US (and elsewhere) has no issue supporting the more authoritarian and repressive of the two political parties. This is potentially the start of a boring partisan flame war. Let's not do that. The Republican and Democratic parties both have some platforms that strike outsiders as authoritarian and repressive. But debating them on HN doesn't work well IME.
    - vkou 4y ago
      I deliberately didn't name names (because in this context, it doesn't matter which is more authoritarian than the other, the statement works regardless of which side of that question you take.) My point is that business interests have no issues with authoritarianism, so long as it doesn't get in their way. If you're waiting for the S&P500 to optimize for freedom and democracy, and justice, and reasonably-priced love, you're going to be in for a very, very long wait. It actively optimizes for the comfort of its executives and shareholder value first and second, and for the rest of society not at all.
  - throwaway4aday 4y ago
    And yet Chinese citizens of all walks of life have been immigrating to my humble neck of the woods for the past decade (and they're welcome to, everyone I've met is super nice and grateful to be here) while I've heard of 0 people moving from my locale to China, I wonder why that is.
mullen 4y ago
I call bullshit on statements like this. You think corporations would love authoritarianism until the corporations realize that one day someone who is really close to the head authoritarian could just demand 10% of their corporation and there is nothing they can do about it. They would also realize there is a whole class of people that can do whatever they want, when ever they want, to whomever they want (As long as the other person was not above them) and there is nothing to be done about it. Corporations, while it might pain them on some level, want to exist in a free, open and democratic sociality since it gives them access to courts and people in power. In Authoritarian systems, people at the top, just take whatever they want and there is nothing to be done about it. Also, a foreign corporation is never going to have access to the higher levels of the Authoritarian government because they are foreign. Places like China don't care about foreign corporations because at the end of the day, there is nothing they can do to help the head authoritarian.

downrightmike 4y ago

As we have seen in America, big companies love fascists, because corps stand to monopolize and make tons of money.

klipklop 4y ago
You would think they would know better after seeing the ultimate fate of Jack Ma.
- downrightmike 4y ago
  Ah, nah it can't happen to them, Ma was different!

Jaygles 4y ago

Merchants have no country https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0167 https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0...