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If ALU gets over 50% of employees to sign the card, they can bypass a vote and declare themselves the union and petition for recognition of such to the NLRB (wh

If ALU gets over 50% of employees to sign the card, they can bypass a vote and declare themselves the union and petition for recognition of such to the NLRB (which will grant it unless Amazon can demonstrate malfeasance somehow). It’s a common tactic by unions and a common response by employers is to carefully but thoroughly explain this tactic to employees—-which they’re allowed to do, but it’s totally illegal to say “DON’T SIGN THE CARD” so it’s a tightrope to walk. When it happened at a facility at which I worked, the HR director read a script, showed a video, took no questions, and videotaped the entire thing to ensure that he could prove it was done legally. Of course, this is Amazon we’re talking about, so they may just go for it and plan to clean up the mess later. Walmart got away with that approach for decades.

whimsicalism 4y ago
Yeah, if they can get 50% of employees on legal record saying they support the union, it is obvious that they don't need an election. Your language, IMO, is value-laden. Card-signing is a common "tactic" for unions like the presidential election is a "tactic" for deciding the next president.
- fatbird 4y ago
  I am 100% behind Amazon employees unionizing, and I wish unionization was far more widespread. I wasn’t trying to impugn unions using the legitimate process to achieve legitimate ends.
- mh- 4y ago
  Election votes are anonymous by nature. Card signing is not. I'm not opposed to unionizing but I take issue with the idea that getting 50% support means "it is obvious that they don't need an election."
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    It seems like you’re saying the lack of anonymity will inflate support for a union. I.e. organizers will be able to pressure people who would otherwise vote no on a union. Frankly, I’d be worried about the opposite. Knowing how aggressively amazon is fighting unions, if I worked there i’d hesitate to put my name down on paper - when I wouldn’t hesitate to vote in a secret ballot. If that’s the case, 50% support implies a stronger majority. Maybe that’s not always the case, but that’s what I’d guess is happening in this case.
    - mh- 4y ago
      Probably both! That's why we shouldn't guess, and votes are secret for a reason.
      - kennywinker 4y ago
        Ah yes, let’s make a rule that makes a difficult process (unionization) for a vulnerable group (workers) more difficult, based on a vague theory about imagined pressure being applied. Sounds like solid reasoning to me.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      Historically, there have been times when intimidation came from the union. There have also been times when intimidation came from management. So, yeah. Secret ballot.
      - whimsicalism 4y ago
        The vast majority of union elections result in more votes for the union than cards signed. It is extremely rare for the number of cards signed to be a higher share than the vote.
      - kennywinker 4y ago
        > People call the current National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) election system a secret ballot election—but in fact it's not like any democratic election held anywhere else in our society. It's really a management-controlled election process because corporations have all the power. They control the information workers can receive and routinely poison the process by intimidating, harassing, coercing and even firing people who try to organize unions. (via https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check) Without reforming the secret ballot process, you’re just handing power to the companies by advocating against card-checks
        mh- 4y ago
        (That quote comes from the AFL-CIO, not Wikipedia editors, for the curious.)
egh 4y ago
That is simply not true. That could be the case in the near future (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/how-the-nlrb-could-ease-union-elections-joy-silk-explained https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/how-the-nlr...) but it is simply not true now. Amazon can always force a vote if 50% of members of the unit sign a card.

whimsicalism 4y ago

Yeah, if they can get 50% of employees on legal record saying they support the union, it is obvious that they don't need an election. Your language, IMO, is value-laden. Card-signing is a common "tactic" for unions like the presidential election is a "tactic" for deciding the next president.

fatbird 4y ago
I am 100% behind Amazon employees unionizing, and I wish unionization was far more widespread. I wasn’t trying to impugn unions using the legitimate process to achieve legitimate ends.
mh- 4y ago
Election votes are anonymous by nature. Card signing is not. I'm not opposed to unionizing but I take issue with the idea that getting 50% support means "it is obvious that they don't need an election."
- kennywinker 4y ago
  It seems like you’re saying the lack of anonymity will inflate support for a union. I.e. organizers will be able to pressure people who would otherwise vote no on a union. Frankly, I’d be worried about the opposite. Knowing how aggressively amazon is fighting unions, if I worked there i’d hesitate to put my name down on paper - when I wouldn’t hesitate to vote in a secret ballot. If that’s the case, 50% support implies a stronger majority. Maybe that’s not always the case, but that’s what I’d guess is happening in this case.
  - mh- 4y ago
    Probably both! That's why we shouldn't guess, and votes are secret for a reason.
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      Ah yes, let’s make a rule that makes a difficult process (unionization) for a vulnerable group (workers) more difficult, based on a vague theory about imagined pressure being applied. Sounds like solid reasoning to me.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Historically, there have been times when intimidation came from the union. There have also been times when intimidation came from management. So, yeah. Secret ballot.
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      The vast majority of union elections result in more votes for the union than cards signed. It is extremely rare for the number of cards signed to be a higher share than the vote.
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      > People call the current National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) election system a secret ballot election—but in fact it's not like any democratic election held anywhere else in our society. It's really a management-controlled election process because corporations have all the power. They control the information workers can receive and routinely poison the process by intimidating, harassing, coercing and even firing people who try to organize unions. (via https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check) Without reforming the secret ballot process, you’re just handing power to the companies by advocating against card-checks
      - mh- 4y ago
        (That quote comes from the AFL-CIO, not Wikipedia editors, for the curious.)

egh 4y ago

That is simply not true. That could be the case in the near future (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/how-the-nlrb-could-ease-union-elections-joy-silk-explained https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/how-the-nlr...) but it is simply not true now. Amazon can always force a vote if 50% of members of the unit sign a card.