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Facebook is in the business as a public company to drive shareholder value, and one way they do that is by tracking users and generally abusing the privacy of t

Facebook is in the business as a public company to drive shareholder value, and one way they do that is by tracking users and generally abusing the privacy of their users. So, if you don't like that or have moral issues or whatever hangups you want to conjure up to hate on them: don't be a customer. And don't be an investor. Its as simple as that.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
this is the classic "neoliberal" take: you as an individual of the poor or working class should focus your energy on fixing worldwide problems through careful consideration of your consumer decisions as individual actors (purchase this product instead of that one, etc.)
- blantonl 4y ago
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    I see we've reached your end of this conversation
matthewmacleod 4y ago
I’m sure you appreciate that the reality is a bit more complex than that, for lots of reasons. For example, Facebook also abuses the privacy of people who aren’t customers (or more accurately, users). Or maybe cutting yourself off from Facebook would mean cutting yourself off from family or friends. Maybe WhatsApp is essential for your work, or for a community organisation you are part of. Or if you have a pension fund, it almost certainly invests in Meta. There are lots of conflicting priorities and issues that can come up when trying to think about the costs of being a users of a particular platform. In reality it’s totally fine to think that a service you use is doing something wrong, to complain about them doing it, and to want them to stop. Some might choose to leave the service; others might want to spread awareness about the issue, or call for regulation. And others might shrug their shoulders and accept it anyway. I’m not sure why you seem so convinced that the only two valid positions are “silently embrace anything they do” and “cut yourself off entirely”.
- type0 4y ago
  > only two valid positions are “silently embrace anything they do” and “cut yourself off entirely”. How about bots, can you use your account sometimes and other times give it to your bot essentially simulating activity and throwing gravel into machinery or will they shut you down?
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    there was a browser extension that showed up on HN some years back that intentionally sends misleading spam to tracking endpoints as you browse
    - type0 4y ago
      adnauseam
  - autoexec 4y ago
    I see this idea thrown around a lot. Random browsing, random posts/comments, etc. I'm not convinced that anyone collecting your data cares about how accurate it is, and it's clear that the people using that data against you don't care all that much either. Maybe if you could find a way to fill their logs with the kinds of data that actually matter (fake your precise GPS location, fake contacts/friends/relatives with detailed fake histories and fake contacts of their own, fake credit card statements showing fake purchase history, etc) it might be more worthwhile, but you'd still be taking a chance because ultimately your life is going to be changed because of what ends up in the logs being collected. You could get turned down for a job because your fake bot was a little too interested in drug/alcohol related websites, or maybe you'll be charged more or denied healthcare coverage because your bot made it appear that you were living an unhealthy lifestyle. The fake location data you sent might get you arrested by police if you were one of only a few people logged within a 2 mile radius of a crime. You can't break down the system by messing with the specifics in your dossier. The system will process your data (the real and the false) just fine and keep right on running. Real or fake, that data will follow you for the rest of your life and it will be all be used against you any time someone thinks it might benefit them to do so.
bagacrap 4y ago
Does providing targeted ads have to be a privacy violation? If no human ever learns my interests then do I care that a server somewhere "knows" I like fishing rods?
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  that knowledge is actively used for precisely targeting things like inciting genocide lol. we're not all coddled and gentle hobbyists
- dazc 4y ago
  Your religion, political affiliation, taste of porn, etc could also be on a server somewhere too.
p49k 4y ago
> don't be a customer. And don't be an investor No one has to accept this false dichotomy. There are far more options. Severely regulate this behavior, force them to break up into smaller companies, declare privacy a right and thus something you can't legally bargain away through accepting a Terms of Service agreement, etc, etc.

wahnfrieden 4y ago

this is the classic "neoliberal" take: you as an individual of the poor or working class should focus your energy on fixing worldwide problems through careful consideration of your consumer decisions as individual actors (purchase this product instead of that one, etc.)

blantonl 4y ago
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  I see we've reached your end of this conversation

matthewmacleod 4y ago

I’m sure you appreciate that the reality is a bit more complex than that, for lots of reasons. For example, Facebook also abuses the privacy of people who aren’t customers (or more accurately, users). Or maybe cutting yourself off from Facebook would mean cutting yourself off from family or friends. Maybe WhatsApp is essential for your work, or for a community organisation you are part of. Or if you have a pension fund, it almost certainly invests in Meta. There are lots of conflicting priorities and issues that can come up when trying to think about the costs of being a users of a particular platform. In reality it’s totally fine to think that a service you use is doing something wrong, to complain about them doing it, and to want them to stop. Some might choose to leave the service; others might want to spread awareness about the issue, or call for regulation. And others might shrug their shoulders and accept it anyway. I’m not sure why you seem so convinced that the only two valid positions are “silently embrace anything they do” and “cut yourself off entirely”.

type0 4y ago
> only two valid positions are “silently embrace anything they do” and “cut yourself off entirely”. How about bots, can you use your account sometimes and other times give it to your bot essentially simulating activity and throwing gravel into machinery or will they shut you down?
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  there was a browser extension that showed up on HN some years back that intentionally sends misleading spam to tracking endpoints as you browse
  - type0 4y ago
    adnauseam
- autoexec 4y ago
  I see this idea thrown around a lot. Random browsing, random posts/comments, etc. I'm not convinced that anyone collecting your data cares about how accurate it is, and it's clear that the people using that data against you don't care all that much either. Maybe if you could find a way to fill their logs with the kinds of data that actually matter (fake your precise GPS location, fake contacts/friends/relatives with detailed fake histories and fake contacts of their own, fake credit card statements showing fake purchase history, etc) it might be more worthwhile, but you'd still be taking a chance because ultimately your life is going to be changed because of what ends up in the logs being collected. You could get turned down for a job because your fake bot was a little too interested in drug/alcohol related websites, or maybe you'll be charged more or denied healthcare coverage because your bot made it appear that you were living an unhealthy lifestyle. The fake location data you sent might get you arrested by police if you were one of only a few people logged within a 2 mile radius of a crime. You can't break down the system by messing with the specifics in your dossier. The system will process your data (the real and the false) just fine and keep right on running. Real or fake, that data will follow you for the rest of your life and it will be all be used against you any time someone thinks it might benefit them to do so.

bagacrap 4y ago

Does providing targeted ads have to be a privacy violation? If no human ever learns my interests then do I care that a server somewhere "knows" I like fishing rods?

wahnfrieden 4y ago
that knowledge is actively used for precisely targeting things like inciting genocide lol. we're not all coddled and gentle hobbyists
dazc 4y ago
Your religion, political affiliation, taste of porn, etc could also be on a server somewhere too.

p49k 4y ago

> don't be a customer. And don't be an investor No one has to accept this false dichotomy. There are far more options. Severely regulate this behavior, force them to break up into smaller companies, declare privacy a right and thus something you can't legally bargain away through accepting a Terms of Service agreement, etc, etc.