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The heterodox view here is that unfair treatment is not a reason men leave tech jobs because men are more resilient to it. For myself, my wife left her tech job

The heterodox view here is that unfair treatment is not a reason men leave tech jobs because men are more resilient to it. For myself, my wife left her tech job because she didn't like the way she was treated. This leaves me forced to work my tech job whether I like my boss or not, because we have several mouths to feed. I don't really have much of a choice, and I venture many many many men feel the same way. A women who leaves the workplace is following a socially acceptable script to do so. If she has kids, absolutely no one will accuse her of being a deadbeat, useless, etc. But God forbid, should a man express a desire to leave, it's a big problem, even if his wife is happy providing. Not saying it's right or it's wrong, but I feel a lot of these articles about women in the workplace ignore the fact that the main reason there's so many men in the workplace is that the men basically have to work, so will stay even in jobs they hate. It's why the stereotypical "do-nothing" employee, the guy who's burnt out but been there forever and no one's going to fire him, is a man -- women leave, men don't.

lapcat 4y ago
Leaving tech is not the same thing as leaving work. Also, the compensation level of the people leaving has to be considered. It makes more sense to leave if you're on the lower level of compensation and promotion than if you're on the higher level (unless you're super rich and can retire early). Frustrated and underpaid is a bad combination for employee retention.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Compensation levels in tech are still higher than most other places. It'd be pretty difficult to change careers into something tech-adjacent later in life and still maintain the same compensation. More likely you'll have to traverse the ladder again and this time with worse compensation. Relative compensation is a different story. >Leaving tech is not the same thing as leaving work Article would have to follow up on this either way. Where did the women leaving tech go off to? From the male side of the perspective, GP is absolutely correct. Men have far more incentive to tough it out in tech than women do once at the point of gaining the financial benefits of living together, for quite a few reasons. Wouldn't be too farfetched to assume this causes tech to further optimize towards men, too, even if not intentionally sexist.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > Compensation levels in tech are still higher than most other places. Compensation levels in tech vary extremely widely by company, location, etc. > It'd be pretty difficult to change careers into something tech-adjacent later in life and still maintain the same compensation. Depends on how much later in life. > Men have far more incentive to tough it out in tech than women do once at the point of gaining the financial benefits of living together, for quite a few reasons. One reason would be if tech favors men in hiring, compensation, and promotions. If your wife is making more money than you but leaves anyway, that would be a little different story.
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      >Compensation levels in tech vary extremely widely by company, location, etc. And compensating for those variations through medians and averages shows tech still tends to pay better on average. Clear exceptions being fields one can't easily pivot into without many years of study. >Depends on how much later in life. Disregarding age discrimination, soft skills will only allow you to pivot so far. That makes age itself rather inconsequential compared to raw experience. >One reason would be if tech favors men in hiring, compensation, and promotions. Another reason is that women put far, far more importance on men's wealth and income than vice versa. Several cultures across the globe reflect this.
      - lapcat 4y ago
        > And compensating for those variations through medians and averages shows tech still tends to pay better on average. Nobody is disputing that tech has a high average. But the industry having a high average doesn't help if you're personally below the average. > Disregarding age discrimination, soft skills will only allow you to pivot so far. That makes age itself rather inconsequential compared to raw experience. The point is that if you leave tech early in your career, when you haven't established much anyway, then you have more time to start over and gain experience in other areas. Maybe you can even go back to school. > Another reason is that women put far, far more importance on men's wealth and income than vice versa. Several cultures across the globe reflect this. You quoted one sentence of mine but not the following sentence: "If your wife is making more money than you but leaves anyway, that would be a little different story." If one spouse quits, and the other becomes the main breadwinner, the income of each spouse seems quite relevant, doesn't it?
- anon291 4y ago
  My wife and I are both software engineers. My wife consistently outearned me. Then we had a baby and she wanted to stay home. It's not about total money, it's about quality of life too. I made enough money to support everyone. Of course five years later I now make more than my wife did. I wanted (and still do) to stay home with my kids (my brother does), but my wife doesn't want to work when the kids are little. Plus, if we both worked we could easily afford daycare. In fact if my wife worked I think we could probably retire in a few years since she was bringing in quite a bit. But the idea that if only we could pay women more than men they wouldn't leave is silly. Families don't just value money or even early retirement or whatever. There is no amount of money to replace your child's early years.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    You seem to be changing your story here. First: "my wife left her tech job because she didn't like the way she was treated. This leaves me forced to work my tech job whether I like my boss or not, because we have several mouths to feed." Now: "Then we had a baby and she wanted to stay home." "my wife doesn't want to work when the kids are little." Theoretically, both could be true. But plenty of people leave their jobs because they don't like the way they were treated, and then get a new job without leaving tech. It sounds like leaving tech for a number of years was about children rather than mistreatment though. Which goes against the claim that "men are more resilient".
    - anon291 4y ago
      Both are true. She quit her job without a backup (something I never do), because of the way she was treated. She got pregnant. Thought she'd have the baby, take some time off and go back. But she loves spending all her time with our daughter. > Which goes against the claim that "men are more resilient". I never said men are more resilient. That's a bit of a value judgement. I don't claim men are better at this. I just think that male resilience looks like a man not quitting, because men have no option. Female resilience is other things, but we need not discuss them here. A man has no option to leave a job. Thus he stays.
      - 4y ago
rustybelt 4y ago
I think this also contributes to men more aggressively seeking career advancement. I’ve worked with talented women who passed on direct opportunities to move up in the organization because they were secondary breadwinners and didn’t want the added stress.
- anon291 4y ago
  Yes I read an article a while back on real estate. Most agents are women, but male agents are always the highest ranking for sales. Easy reason... Real estate is a hobby job for well to do women with rich husbands. For men, it's a primary occupation

lapcat 4y ago

Leaving tech is not the same thing as leaving work. Also, the compensation level of the people leaving has to be considered. It makes more sense to leave if you're on the lower level of compensation and promotion than if you're on the higher level (unless you're super rich and can retire early). Frustrated and underpaid is a bad combination for employee retention.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Compensation levels in tech are still higher than most other places. It'd be pretty difficult to change careers into something tech-adjacent later in life and still maintain the same compensation. More likely you'll have to traverse the ladder again and this time with worse compensation. Relative compensation is a different story. >Leaving tech is not the same thing as leaving work Article would have to follow up on this either way. Where did the women leaving tech go off to? From the male side of the perspective, GP is absolutely correct. Men have far more incentive to tough it out in tech than women do once at the point of gaining the financial benefits of living together, for quite a few reasons. Wouldn't be too farfetched to assume this causes tech to further optimize towards men, too, even if not intentionally sexist.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > Compensation levels in tech are still higher than most other places. Compensation levels in tech vary extremely widely by company, location, etc. > It'd be pretty difficult to change careers into something tech-adjacent later in life and still maintain the same compensation. Depends on how much later in life. > Men have far more incentive to tough it out in tech than women do once at the point of gaining the financial benefits of living together, for quite a few reasons. One reason would be if tech favors men in hiring, compensation, and promotions. If your wife is making more money than you but leaves anyway, that would be a little different story.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    >Compensation levels in tech vary extremely widely by company, location, etc. And compensating for those variations through medians and averages shows tech still tends to pay better on average. Clear exceptions being fields one can't easily pivot into without many years of study. >Depends on how much later in life. Disregarding age discrimination, soft skills will only allow you to pivot so far. That makes age itself rather inconsequential compared to raw experience. >One reason would be if tech favors men in hiring, compensation, and promotions. Another reason is that women put far, far more importance on men's wealth and income than vice versa. Several cultures across the globe reflect this.
    - lapcat 4y ago
      > And compensating for those variations through medians and averages shows tech still tends to pay better on average. Nobody is disputing that tech has a high average. But the industry having a high average doesn't help if you're personally below the average. > Disregarding age discrimination, soft skills will only allow you to pivot so far. That makes age itself rather inconsequential compared to raw experience. The point is that if you leave tech early in your career, when you haven't established much anyway, then you have more time to start over and gain experience in other areas. Maybe you can even go back to school. > Another reason is that women put far, far more importance on men's wealth and income than vice versa. Several cultures across the globe reflect this. You quoted one sentence of mine but not the following sentence: "If your wife is making more money than you but leaves anyway, that would be a little different story." If one spouse quits, and the other becomes the main breadwinner, the income of each spouse seems quite relevant, doesn't it?
anon291 4y ago
My wife and I are both software engineers. My wife consistently outearned me. Then we had a baby and she wanted to stay home. It's not about total money, it's about quality of life too. I made enough money to support everyone. Of course five years later I now make more than my wife did. I wanted (and still do) to stay home with my kids (my brother does), but my wife doesn't want to work when the kids are little. Plus, if we both worked we could easily afford daycare. In fact if my wife worked I think we could probably retire in a few years since she was bringing in quite a bit. But the idea that if only we could pay women more than men they wouldn't leave is silly. Families don't just value money or even early retirement or whatever. There is no amount of money to replace your child's early years.
- lapcat 4y ago
  You seem to be changing your story here. First: "my wife left her tech job because she didn't like the way she was treated. This leaves me forced to work my tech job whether I like my boss or not, because we have several mouths to feed." Now: "Then we had a baby and she wanted to stay home." "my wife doesn't want to work when the kids are little." Theoretically, both could be true. But plenty of people leave their jobs because they don't like the way they were treated, and then get a new job without leaving tech. It sounds like leaving tech for a number of years was about children rather than mistreatment though. Which goes against the claim that "men are more resilient".
  - anon291 4y ago
    Both are true. She quit her job without a backup (something I never do), because of the way she was treated. She got pregnant. Thought she'd have the baby, take some time off and go back. But she loves spending all her time with our daughter. > Which goes against the claim that "men are more resilient". I never said men are more resilient. That's a bit of a value judgement. I don't claim men are better at this. I just think that male resilience looks like a man not quitting, because men have no option. Female resilience is other things, but we need not discuss them here. A man has no option to leave a job. Thus he stays.
    - 4y ago

rustybelt 4y ago

I think this also contributes to men more aggressively seeking career advancement. I’ve worked with talented women who passed on direct opportunities to move up in the organization because they were secondary breadwinners and didn’t want the added stress.

anon291 4y ago
Yes I read an article a while back on real estate. Most agents are women, but male agents are always the highest ranking for sales. Easy reason... Real estate is a hobby job for well to do women with rich husbands. For men, it's a primary occupation