6 ms·

It is interesting you say that because there are other means of advertising than user tracking. Take context sensitive advertising for instance, you currently l

It is interesting you say that because there are other means of advertising than user tracking. Take context sensitive advertising for instance, you currently look at an article about harddrives it is likely you may be interested in computer hardware - so let's display computer ads.

coffeeblack 4y ago
That’s what AdSense did for over a decade. Then they switched to user interest based ads, because they convert a lot better.
blantonl 4y ago
Facebook is in the business as a public company to drive shareholder value, and one way they do that is by tracking users and generally abusing the privacy of their users. So, if you don't like that or have moral issues or whatever hangups you want to conjure up to hate on them: don't be a customer. And don't be an investor. Its as simple as that.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  this is the classic "neoliberal" take: you as an individual of the poor or working class should focus your energy on fixing worldwide problems through careful consideration of your consumer decisions as individual actors (purchase this product instead of that one, etc.)
  - blantonl 4y ago
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      I see we've reached your end of this conversation
- matthewmacleod 4y ago
  I’m sure you appreciate that the reality is a bit more complex than that, for lots of reasons. For example, Facebook also abuses the privacy of people who aren’t customers (or more accurately, users). Or maybe cutting yourself off from Facebook would mean cutting yourself off from family or friends. Maybe WhatsApp is essential for your work, or for a community organisation you are part of. Or if you have a pension fund, it almost certainly invests in Meta. There are lots of conflicting priorities and issues that can come up when trying to think about the costs of being a users of a particular platform. In reality it’s totally fine to think that a service you use is doing something wrong, to complain about them doing it, and to want them to stop. Some might choose to leave the service; others might want to spread awareness about the issue, or call for regulation. And others might shrug their shoulders and accept it anyway. I’m not sure why you seem so convinced that the only two valid positions are “silently embrace anything they do” and “cut yourself off entirely”.
  - type0 4y ago
    > only two valid positions are “silently embrace anything they do” and “cut yourself off entirely”. How about bots, can you use your account sometimes and other times give it to your bot essentially simulating activity and throwing gravel into machinery or will they shut you down?
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      there was a browser extension that showed up on HN some years back that intentionally sends misleading spam to tracking endpoints as you browse
      - type0 4y ago
        adnauseam
    - autoexec 4y ago
      I see this idea thrown around a lot. Random browsing, random posts/comments, etc. I'm not convinced that anyone collecting your data cares about how accurate it is, and it's clear that the people using that data against you don't care all that much either. Maybe if you could find a way to fill their logs with the kinds of data that actually matter (fake your precise GPS location, fake contacts/friends/relatives with detailed fake histories and fake contacts of their own, fake credit card statements showing fake purchase history, etc) it might be more worthwhile, but you'd still be taking a chance because ultimately your life is going to be changed because of what ends up in the logs being collected. You could get turned down for a job because your fake bot was a little too interested in drug/alcohol related websites, or maybe you'll be charged more or denied healthcare coverage because your bot made it appear that you were living an unhealthy lifestyle. The fake location data you sent might get you arrested by police if you were one of only a few people logged within a 2 mile radius of a crime. You can't break down the system by messing with the specifics in your dossier. The system will process your data (the real and the false) just fine and keep right on running. Real or fake, that data will follow you for the rest of your life and it will be all be used against you any time someone thinks it might benefit them to do so.
- bagacrap 4y ago
  Does providing targeted ads have to be a privacy violation? If no human ever learns my interests then do I care that a server somewhere "knows" I like fishing rods?
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    that knowledge is actively used for precisely targeting things like inciting genocide lol. we're not all coddled and gentle hobbyists
  - dazc 4y ago
    Your religion, political affiliation, taste of porn, etc could also be on a server somewhere too.
- p49k 4y ago
  > don't be a customer. And don't be an investor No one has to accept this false dichotomy. There are far more options. Severely regulate this behavior, force them to break up into smaller companies, declare privacy a right and thus something you can't legally bargain away through accepting a Terms of Service agreement, etc, etc.
LunaSea 4y ago
This doesn't work because articles articles about hard drives don't represent enough ad impressions to fullfil the volume requirements of an ad campaign.
dazc 4y ago
The behaviour of facebook and google for the past ten years suggests that revenue from tracking based ads must be multiple times that of plain old contextual ads, hence the continued push down this path? You don't suddenly decide to stop doing evil for just a few percentage points after all.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > The behaviour of facebook and google for the past ten years suggests that revenue from tracking based ads must be multiple times that of plain old contextual ads, hence the continued push down this path? I'm not sure that's a given. It seems like mass data collection is profitable in a vast number of ways that have nothing to do with ads which could themselves be more than enough to incentivize google and facebook to continue collecting it.
  - blackoil 4y ago
    What other revenue source they have from this data?
    - autoexec 4y ago
      There are countless ways this data is used to extract as much money from you as possible. The data being collected by companies and sold by data brokers are used for things like determining how much money you pay for something vs your neighbor. A company might tell you their prices, services, or return policies are on thing, but tell the next person who walks in something much more favorable. Companies have been seen using this data to decide how long to keep people on hold. You aren't told you were bumped to the bottom of the queue to make room for people with a better "Consumer Score", you're just left waiting. It's used to set you how much you pay for things like health insurance. You just see your rates go up. You don't know it's because they saw you spent too much at bars or that people in your zip code increased their spending on fast food over the last 6 months. Everyone wants their hands on your data to abuse in any way they can to give them an advantage over you. To take advantage of you. It's being used to manipulate you and to shape your views. It's used to decide if you will be offered a job, or get an apartment. It's sold and resold over and over, to data brokers, but also to governments (including US companies selling that data to the US government). There's an entire multi-billion dollar a year industry around buying and selling the most mundane aspects of your life for this reason. Every scrap of data that is taken from you can be leveraged against you or sold to someone else on the promise that it could be.

coffeeblack 4y ago

That’s what AdSense did for over a decade. Then they switched to user interest based ads, because they convert a lot better.

blantonl 4y ago

Facebook is in the business as a public company to drive shareholder value, and one way they do that is by tracking users and generally abusing the privacy of their users. So, if you don't like that or have moral issues or whatever hangups you want to conjure up to hate on them: don't be a customer. And don't be an investor. Its as simple as that.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
this is the classic "neoliberal" take: you as an individual of the poor or working class should focus your energy on fixing worldwide problems through careful consideration of your consumer decisions as individual actors (purchase this product instead of that one, etc.)
- blantonl 4y ago
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    I see we've reached your end of this conversation
matthewmacleod 4y ago
I’m sure you appreciate that the reality is a bit more complex than that, for lots of reasons. For example, Facebook also abuses the privacy of people who aren’t customers (or more accurately, users). Or maybe cutting yourself off from Facebook would mean cutting yourself off from family or friends. Maybe WhatsApp is essential for your work, or for a community organisation you are part of. Or if you have a pension fund, it almost certainly invests in Meta. There are lots of conflicting priorities and issues that can come up when trying to think about the costs of being a users of a particular platform. In reality it’s totally fine to think that a service you use is doing something wrong, to complain about them doing it, and to want them to stop. Some might choose to leave the service; others might want to spread awareness about the issue, or call for regulation. And others might shrug their shoulders and accept it anyway. I’m not sure why you seem so convinced that the only two valid positions are “silently embrace anything they do” and “cut yourself off entirely”.
- type0 4y ago
  > only two valid positions are “silently embrace anything they do” and “cut yourself off entirely”. How about bots, can you use your account sometimes and other times give it to your bot essentially simulating activity and throwing gravel into machinery or will they shut you down?
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    there was a browser extension that showed up on HN some years back that intentionally sends misleading spam to tracking endpoints as you browse
    - type0 4y ago
      adnauseam
  - autoexec 4y ago
    I see this idea thrown around a lot. Random browsing, random posts/comments, etc. I'm not convinced that anyone collecting your data cares about how accurate it is, and it's clear that the people using that data against you don't care all that much either. Maybe if you could find a way to fill their logs with the kinds of data that actually matter (fake your precise GPS location, fake contacts/friends/relatives with detailed fake histories and fake contacts of their own, fake credit card statements showing fake purchase history, etc) it might be more worthwhile, but you'd still be taking a chance because ultimately your life is going to be changed because of what ends up in the logs being collected. You could get turned down for a job because your fake bot was a little too interested in drug/alcohol related websites, or maybe you'll be charged more or denied healthcare coverage because your bot made it appear that you were living an unhealthy lifestyle. The fake location data you sent might get you arrested by police if you were one of only a few people logged within a 2 mile radius of a crime. You can't break down the system by messing with the specifics in your dossier. The system will process your data (the real and the false) just fine and keep right on running. Real or fake, that data will follow you for the rest of your life and it will be all be used against you any time someone thinks it might benefit them to do so.
bagacrap 4y ago
Does providing targeted ads have to be a privacy violation? If no human ever learns my interests then do I care that a server somewhere "knows" I like fishing rods?
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  that knowledge is actively used for precisely targeting things like inciting genocide lol. we're not all coddled and gentle hobbyists
- dazc 4y ago
  Your religion, political affiliation, taste of porn, etc could also be on a server somewhere too.
p49k 4y ago
> don't be a customer. And don't be an investor No one has to accept this false dichotomy. There are far more options. Severely regulate this behavior, force them to break up into smaller companies, declare privacy a right and thus something you can't legally bargain away through accepting a Terms of Service agreement, etc, etc.

LunaSea 4y ago

This doesn't work because articles articles about hard drives don't represent enough ad impressions to fullfil the volume requirements of an ad campaign.

dazc 4y ago

The behaviour of facebook and google for the past ten years suggests that revenue from tracking based ads must be multiple times that of plain old contextual ads, hence the continued push down this path? You don't suddenly decide to stop doing evil for just a few percentage points after all.

autoexec 4y ago
> The behaviour of facebook and google for the past ten years suggests that revenue from tracking based ads must be multiple times that of plain old contextual ads, hence the continued push down this path? I'm not sure that's a given. It seems like mass data collection is profitable in a vast number of ways that have nothing to do with ads which could themselves be more than enough to incentivize google and facebook to continue collecting it.
- blackoil 4y ago
  What other revenue source they have from this data?
  - autoexec 4y ago
    There are countless ways this data is used to extract as much money from you as possible. The data being collected by companies and sold by data brokers are used for things like determining how much money you pay for something vs your neighbor. A company might tell you their prices, services, or return policies are on thing, but tell the next person who walks in something much more favorable. Companies have been seen using this data to decide how long to keep people on hold. You aren't told you were bumped to the bottom of the queue to make room for people with a better "Consumer Score", you're just left waiting. It's used to set you how much you pay for things like health insurance. You just see your rates go up. You don't know it's because they saw you spent too much at bars or that people in your zip code increased their spending on fast food over the last 6 months. Everyone wants their hands on your data to abuse in any way they can to give them an advantage over you. To take advantage of you. It's being used to manipulate you and to shape your views. It's used to decide if you will be offered a job, or get an apartment. It's sold and resold over and over, to data brokers, but also to governments (including US companies selling that data to the US government). There's an entire multi-billion dollar a year industry around buying and selling the most mundane aspects of your life for this reason. Every scrap of data that is taken from you can be leveraged against you or sold to someone else on the promise that it could be.