6 ms·

It’s the price you pay to use the platform because it’s free.

by daniel_iversen 4y ago

wahnfrieden 4y ago
I don't use the platform, and I don't accept that cost
- blantonl 4y ago
  this is the way
- jefftk 4y ago
  But if you don't use the platform then this new link format doesn't affect you?
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    so what, jesus christ
    - type0 4y ago
      they still collect a dossier on you, shadow profile.
      - jefftk 4y ago
        I thought we were talking specifically about the privacy implications of the new link format? Which is entirely orthogonal to shadow profiles.
        wahnfrieden 4y ago
        idk why you're nitpicking the logic of a discussion that you kicked off w "why would you care about something that doesn't directly affect you specifically". it's embarrassing that hn requires a civil response to that instead of dismissing and moving on lol
  - rwalle 4y ago
    Define "use the platform" Do you know that almost every "share on Facebook" button on a random news article/blog post collects data from you, if you don't have strong privacy protection enabled? That means even if you have never registered a Facebook account, Facebook could gather your page view data and use that to show ads targeting you on another page. Same thing here.
    - jefftk 4y ago
      We are talking about a new style of Facebook link that has built-in tracking parameters, so that when you click through to a page on Facebook it gets logged in connection with how you got there. If someone never visits Facebook, this new style of link does not affect them. I agree that Facebook also collects data in other ways, but this is entirely unrelated.
    - cascada 4y ago
      "button on a random news article/blog post collects data from you, " " That means even if you have never registered a Facebook account, Facebook could gather your page view data and use that to show ads targeting you on another page." What a gibberish. Tell me, how will it technically do that? On what "another page"? On the same website - yes. So what? Each website can do that.
- iso1631 4y ago
  Except facebook still tracks you, knows who you're friend are and knows where you've been (even if your friends weren't there you're in the backgorund of a strangers photo)
  - cascada 4y ago
    It's not that Facebook collects that data and knows it. It's rather that you who has no idea how web works, what's it's capable of and what's not. As a result, you're coming up with honour stories.
sebazzz 4y ago
It is interesting you say that because there are other means of advertising than user tracking. Take context sensitive advertising for instance, you currently look at an article about harddrives it is likely you may be interested in computer hardware - so let's display computer ads.
- coffeeblack 4y ago
  That’s what AdSense did for over a decade. Then they switched to user interest based ads, because they convert a lot better.
- blantonl 4y ago
  Facebook is in the business as a public company to drive shareholder value, and one way they do that is by tracking users and generally abusing the privacy of their users. So, if you don't like that or have moral issues or whatever hangups you want to conjure up to hate on them: don't be a customer. And don't be an investor. Its as simple as that.
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    this is the classic "neoliberal" take: you as an individual of the poor or working class should focus your energy on fixing worldwide problems through careful consideration of your consumer decisions as individual actors (purchase this product instead of that one, etc.)
    - blantonl 4y ago
      - wahnfrieden 4y ago
        I see we've reached your end of this conversation
  - matthewmacleod 4y ago
    I’m sure you appreciate that the reality is a bit more complex than that, for lots of reasons. For example, Facebook also abuses the privacy of people who aren’t customers (or more accurately, users). Or maybe cutting yourself off from Facebook would mean cutting yourself off from family or friends. Maybe WhatsApp is essential for your work, or for a community organisation you are part of. Or if you have a pension fund, it almost certainly invests in Meta. There are lots of conflicting priorities and issues that can come up when trying to think about the costs of being a users of a particular platform. In reality it’s totally fine to think that a service you use is doing something wrong, to complain about them doing it, and to want them to stop. Some might choose to leave the service; others might want to spread awareness about the issue, or call for regulation. And others might shrug their shoulders and accept it anyway. I’m not sure why you seem so convinced that the only two valid positions are “silently embrace anything they do” and “cut yourself off entirely”.
hexo 4y ago
"free"
hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
FB is an advertising platform that depends on the number of eyeballs. This number is already dropping. The more user-hostile they become, the worse for their bottom line in the long term, in spite of potential short-term gains, if any.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  I wouldn't expect a market solution for privacy woes
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  There can be a lot of pain and harm delivered before the market becomes rational.
tut-urut-utut 4y ago
They would not stop tracking you even if you pay. There are countless examples of this. The only way to win is not to use term.
- Agamus 4y ago
  If only it were that easy! The only way to win is to bend over backwards to block all of their various tracking garbage that is hiding in the majority of internet websites. And I suspect that even the most stalwart soldier in this fight is probably still losing somehow.
rockbruno 4y ago
Are you implying they would not do it if it was paid? The Samsung TV I paid for is filled with ads in the home screen. I pay $30 a month for cable tv and I'm still forced to see 30 minutes of ads for every mere 5 minutes of actual content. They would absolutely still do this even if Facebook was paid.
- daniel_iversen 4y ago
  It’s not as simple as that I believe. It’s a combination of user awareness, free market forces, mission and values, shareholder expectations, greed and unit economics (which, the latter, isn’t an issue for fb). Facebook responds to their shareholders, but luckily they don’t have a monopoly anymore (anecdotally from what I can read, besides the small but growing number of adults that are leaving the platform a decent amount of the younger generation isn’t even on it to begin with). I think it’s simply about those handful of metrics and forces that makes them do what they do.
wintermutestwin 4y ago
> It’s the price you pay to use the platform because it’s free. ? That doesn't make sense. It is most certainly not "free" and the real price is one that is far more than the costs of providing their services. The problem is that joe user doesn't understand the value of what they are paying so Facecrook is selling trinkets to the natives for land.
dredmorbius 4y ago
Each family of four in the 1 billion population of the wealthiest nations (US, EU, Japan, Canada, Australia, NZ, ..) are paying on average $486 to Facebook through ad spend subsidised by their purchases, whether they use the site or not. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32118404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32118404

It’s the price you pay to use the platform because it’s free.

wahnfrieden 4y ago

I don't use the platform, and I don't accept that cost

blantonl 4y ago
this is the way
jefftk 4y ago
But if you don't use the platform then this new link format doesn't affect you?
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  so what, jesus christ
  - type0 4y ago
    they still collect a dossier on you, shadow profile.
    - jefftk 4y ago
      I thought we were talking specifically about the privacy implications of the new link format? Which is entirely orthogonal to shadow profiles.
      - wahnfrieden 4y ago
        idk why you're nitpicking the logic of a discussion that you kicked off w "why would you care about something that doesn't directly affect you specifically". it's embarrassing that hn requires a civil response to that instead of dismissing and moving on lol
- rwalle 4y ago
  Define "use the platform" Do you know that almost every "share on Facebook" button on a random news article/blog post collects data from you, if you don't have strong privacy protection enabled? That means even if you have never registered a Facebook account, Facebook could gather your page view data and use that to show ads targeting you on another page. Same thing here.
  - jefftk 4y ago
    We are talking about a new style of Facebook link that has built-in tracking parameters, so that when you click through to a page on Facebook it gets logged in connection with how you got there. If someone never visits Facebook, this new style of link does not affect them. I agree that Facebook also collects data in other ways, but this is entirely unrelated.
  - cascada 4y ago
    "button on a random news article/blog post collects data from you, " " That means even if you have never registered a Facebook account, Facebook could gather your page view data and use that to show ads targeting you on another page." What a gibberish. Tell me, how will it technically do that? On what "another page"? On the same website - yes. So what? Each website can do that.
iso1631 4y ago
Except facebook still tracks you, knows who you're friend are and knows where you've been (even if your friends weren't there you're in the backgorund of a strangers photo)
- cascada 4y ago
  It's not that Facebook collects that data and knows it. It's rather that you who has no idea how web works, what's it's capable of and what's not. As a result, you're coming up with honour stories.

sebazzz 4y ago

It is interesting you say that because there are other means of advertising than user tracking. Take context sensitive advertising for instance, you currently look at an article about harddrives it is likely you may be interested in computer hardware - so let's display computer ads.

coffeeblack 4y ago
That’s what AdSense did for over a decade. Then they switched to user interest based ads, because they convert a lot better.
blantonl 4y ago
Facebook is in the business as a public company to drive shareholder value, and one way they do that is by tracking users and generally abusing the privacy of their users. So, if you don't like that or have moral issues or whatever hangups you want to conjure up to hate on them: don't be a customer. And don't be an investor. Its as simple as that.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  this is the classic "neoliberal" take: you as an individual of the poor or working class should focus your energy on fixing worldwide problems through careful consideration of your consumer decisions as individual actors (purchase this product instead of that one, etc.)
  - blantonl 4y ago
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      I see we've reached your end of this conversation
- matthewmacleod 4y ago
  I’m sure you appreciate that the reality is a bit more complex than that, for lots of reasons. For example, Facebook also abuses the privacy of people who aren’t customers (or more accurately, users). Or maybe cutting yourself off from Facebook would mean cutting yourself off from family or friends. Maybe WhatsApp is essential for your work, or for a community organisation you are part of. Or if you have a pension fund, it almost certainly invests in Meta. There are lots of conflicting priorities and issues that can come up when trying to think about the costs of being a users of a particular platform. In reality it’s totally fine to think that a service you use is doing something wrong, to complain about them doing it, and to want them to stop. Some might choose to leave the service; others might want to spread awareness about the issue, or call for regulation. And others might shrug their shoulders and accept it anyway. I’m not sure why you seem so convinced that the only two valid positions are “silently embrace anything they do” and “cut yourself off entirely”.

hexo 4y ago

"free"

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago

FB is an advertising platform that depends on the number of eyeballs. This number is already dropping. The more user-hostile they become, the worse for their bottom line in the long term, in spite of potential short-term gains, if any.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
I wouldn't expect a market solution for privacy woes
dredmorbius 4y ago
There can be a lot of pain and harm delivered before the market becomes rational.

tut-urut-utut 4y ago

They would not stop tracking you even if you pay. There are countless examples of this. The only way to win is not to use term.

Agamus 4y ago
If only it were that easy! The only way to win is to bend over backwards to block all of their various tracking garbage that is hiding in the majority of internet websites. And I suspect that even the most stalwart soldier in this fight is probably still losing somehow.

rockbruno 4y ago

Are you implying they would not do it if it was paid? The Samsung TV I paid for is filled with ads in the home screen. I pay $30 a month for cable tv and I'm still forced to see 30 minutes of ads for every mere 5 minutes of actual content. They would absolutely still do this even if Facebook was paid.

daniel_iversen 4y ago
It’s not as simple as that I believe. It’s a combination of user awareness, free market forces, mission and values, shareholder expectations, greed and unit economics (which, the latter, isn’t an issue for fb). Facebook responds to their shareholders, but luckily they don’t have a monopoly anymore (anecdotally from what I can read, besides the small but growing number of adults that are leaving the platform a decent amount of the younger generation isn’t even on it to begin with). I think it’s simply about those handful of metrics and forces that makes them do what they do.

wintermutestwin 4y ago

> It’s the price you pay to use the platform because it’s free. ? That doesn't make sense. It is most certainly not "free" and the real price is one that is far more than the costs of providing their services. The problem is that joe user doesn't understand the value of what they are paying so Facecrook is selling trinkets to the natives for land.

dredmorbius 4y ago

Each family of four in the 1 billion population of the wealthiest nations (US, EU, Japan, Canada, Australia, NZ, ..) are paying on average $486 to Facebook through ad spend subsidised by their purchases, whether they use the site or not. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32118404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32118404