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I don’t understand these articles. There’s so much hand wringing and the implication is that we’ve failed as a species. The solution hinted at seems to be ditc

by 10u152 4y ago

I don’t understand these articles. There’s so much hand wringing and the implication is that we’ve failed as a species. The solution hinted at seems to be ditch all technology, transport and modern methods and go back to pre-industrialised society. How about campaigning for something useful like more efficiency or insulation?

brightball 4y ago
Exactly. Air conditioning is probably a top 3-5 all time human invention.
- bonzini 4y ago
  If air conditioning is top 3, blinds (the kind that actually keeps heat out, which you find in Mediterranean countries, not the shitty ones you put inside the room) are worth a Nobel prize.
  - helmholtz 4y ago
    And stepwells, and latticework false walls, and high ceilings, and ventilators at the top of the house, and having a false-basement thing in houses where it's a bit cooler in the afternoons, and siestas and walking slowly from place to place, and loose-fitting linen clothing, and lemonade. But no. My shitty white plastic Carrier A/C is all I care about. Housing in the US is depressingly shite.
    - somewhereoutth 4y ago
      I think the idea is that Americans want to live like northern Europeans regardless of the actual climate of where they are.
    - Turing_Machine 4y ago
      Stepwells are picturesque, but they are also a public health nightmare.
  - LightG 4y ago
    Agreed. We're just learning now, in the current heatwave, how effective blackout blinds are in keep the heat out (white coloured backing facing the sun). It's great.
    - bonzini 4y ago
      Look at Spain, Italy or Greece on Google Maps (or southern France too). You'll see that they put blinds outside the building.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > Air conditioning is probably a top 3-5 all time human invention. No such much AC specifically, but rather the refrigerant loop generally, IMHO. Being able to keep humans cool, but also food chilled (to limit bacteria growth), food frozen (for long term storage and transport), as well as medication, vaccines, blood, tissue samples, etc. The cold chain (in logistics) is a marvel of human accomplishment: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_chain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_chain
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    >The cold chain (in logistics) is a marvel of human accomplishment... ...until we all realize it was short sighted because it killed of billions because of starvation and the inability to cool ourselves.
bombcar 4y ago
“ The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.” gets lots of clicks if you change it up a bit.
- morelisp 4y ago
  Name checks out.
Flankk 4y ago
It's actually incoherent. The author concludes that we need to move away from fossil fuels as a species. So AC is fine then, yeah? Or is the plan to give ourselves heat stroke until we figure out sustainable energy? Why is my higher standard of living being compared to those in Africa? I don't live in Africa.
helmholtz 4y ago
- Majestic121 4y ago
  It is quite a meaningless rant. "Letting the outside in" is pretty nice when the outside is within reasonable bounds, and you seem to be lucky enough to have that, but when the outside is 40C and above, or 99% humidity, it's just turning daily life to hell. And yes, we can both increase efficiency and make sure the origin of electricity is from renewable source to make things better. It will consume more energy than not doing it at all, but believe me, ask anyone that lives in a place where the weather is at least a bit harsh (apparently not your case), the price is definitely worth it. As for the rant about building shopping malls and parking lots, there's been quite a lot of development since the 90's. All the new projects I see popping up contain greenery and parks develop wild patches, and mega-malls are falling into disrepair.
  - helmholtz 4y ago
    "Apparently not your case" My friend, I lived most of my life in India. Trust me. I know everything there is to know about heat. I KNOW the engineers who're in this field. I see them every year at the same damn conference, where they talk the same damn talk all the time. Hypothetically, sure, one can do both. Improve efficiency AND reduce. But please, tell me where we've done that? CPUs? Electricity usage? CO2 emissions? Nowhere.
Proven 4y ago
skyfaller 4y ago
Efficiency alone almost certainly will not allow us to avoid climate catastrophe, due to the Jevons Paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox When an activity uses less energy and therefore becomes less expensive, people tend to simply engage more in that activity, until they use more energy than they did before. One reason why is obvious from your attitude here: our culture considers life to be more luxurious and enjoyable when you can do and consume more stuff, and advancing the idea of doing/consuming less is considered backwards and not "useful". Insulation at the scale needed to avoid climate catastrophe would require a massive international mobilization, along the lines of the Green New Deal and a Green Marshall Plan, to renovate all buildings everywhere before 2050. Sadly the political will to do this seems absent from almost every country, with a couple possible exceptions such as Chile attempting to rewrite their constitution to prioritize climate justice. Basically no countries are approaching even the inadequate Paris agreement targets. And if you achieved such insulation, without other more drastic changes to our society, people would just run their AC/heat more to reach more luxurious temperatures, and we would not avoid any greenhouse gas emissions.
- somewhereoutth 4y ago
  Yes, a very important principle. See also road building and induced demand. Therefore we should be working to reduce supply of fossil fuels, to 'keep it in the ground'. If there is less to go round, then efficiencies will still be found but used to maintain what we had (as far as practicable) as opposed to increasing demand
  - fmajid 4y ago
    The concept of “induced demand” as if it’s a bad thing is irredeemably stupid. It’s like saying “adding Internet bandwidth is pointless because demand will just rise to match capacity, and we should go back to the days of 56K modems”.
    - somewhereoutth 4y ago
      It is a bad thing if we fully understand the personal and social cost of car driving.
MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
None of it makes sense, unless you assume that they are not very bright, or the actual goal is to dismantle the current civilisation due to malcontent stemming from the projection of personal issues. Revenge Against God For The Crime Of Being.
btmiller 4y ago
Father John Misty’s Things It Would’ve Been Helpful to Know Before the Revolution is worth a listen.

by 10u152 4y ago

brightball 4y ago

Exactly. Air conditioning is probably a top 3-5 all time human invention.

bonzini 4y ago
If air conditioning is top 3, blinds (the kind that actually keeps heat out, which you find in Mediterranean countries, not the shitty ones you put inside the room) are worth a Nobel prize.
- helmholtz 4y ago
  And stepwells, and latticework false walls, and high ceilings, and ventilators at the top of the house, and having a false-basement thing in houses where it's a bit cooler in the afternoons, and siestas and walking slowly from place to place, and loose-fitting linen clothing, and lemonade. But no. My shitty white plastic Carrier A/C is all I care about. Housing in the US is depressingly shite.
  - somewhereoutth 4y ago
    I think the idea is that Americans want to live like northern Europeans regardless of the actual climate of where they are.
  - Turing_Machine 4y ago
    Stepwells are picturesque, but they are also a public health nightmare.
- LightG 4y ago
  Agreed. We're just learning now, in the current heatwave, how effective blackout blinds are in keep the heat out (white coloured backing facing the sun). It's great.
  - bonzini 4y ago
    Look at Spain, Italy or Greece on Google Maps (or southern France too). You'll see that they put blinds outside the building.
throw0101a 4y ago
> Air conditioning is probably a top 3-5 all time human invention. No such much AC specifically, but rather the refrigerant loop generally, IMHO. Being able to keep humans cool, but also food chilled (to limit bacteria growth), food frozen (for long term storage and transport), as well as medication, vaccines, blood, tissue samples, etc. The cold chain (in logistics) is a marvel of human accomplishment: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_chain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_chain
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  >The cold chain (in logistics) is a marvel of human accomplishment... ...until we all realize it was short sighted because it killed of billions because of starvation and the inability to cool ourselves.

bombcar 4y ago

“ The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.” gets lots of clicks if you change it up a bit.

morelisp 4y ago
Name checks out.

Flankk 4y ago

It's actually incoherent. The author concludes that we need to move away from fossil fuels as a species. So AC is fine then, yeah? Or is the plan to give ourselves heat stroke until we figure out sustainable energy? Why is my higher standard of living being compared to those in Africa? I don't live in Africa.

helmholtz 4y ago

Majestic121 4y ago
It is quite a meaningless rant. "Letting the outside in" is pretty nice when the outside is within reasonable bounds, and you seem to be lucky enough to have that, but when the outside is 40C and above, or 99% humidity, it's just turning daily life to hell. And yes, we can both increase efficiency and make sure the origin of electricity is from renewable source to make things better. It will consume more energy than not doing it at all, but believe me, ask anyone that lives in a place where the weather is at least a bit harsh (apparently not your case), the price is definitely worth it. As for the rant about building shopping malls and parking lots, there's been quite a lot of development since the 90's. All the new projects I see popping up contain greenery and parks develop wild patches, and mega-malls are falling into disrepair.
- helmholtz 4y ago
  "Apparently not your case" My friend, I lived most of my life in India. Trust me. I know everything there is to know about heat. I KNOW the engineers who're in this field. I see them every year at the same damn conference, where they talk the same damn talk all the time. Hypothetically, sure, one can do both. Improve efficiency AND reduce. But please, tell me where we've done that? CPUs? Electricity usage? CO2 emissions? Nowhere.

Proven 4y ago

skyfaller 4y ago

Efficiency alone almost certainly will not allow us to avoid climate catastrophe, due to the Jevons Paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox When an activity uses less energy and therefore becomes less expensive, people tend to simply engage more in that activity, until they use more energy than they did before. One reason why is obvious from your attitude here: our culture considers life to be more luxurious and enjoyable when you can do and consume more stuff, and advancing the idea of doing/consuming less is considered backwards and not "useful". Insulation at the scale needed to avoid climate catastrophe would require a massive international mobilization, along the lines of the Green New Deal and a Green Marshall Plan, to renovate all buildings everywhere before 2050. Sadly the political will to do this seems absent from almost every country, with a couple possible exceptions such as Chile attempting to rewrite their constitution to prioritize climate justice. Basically no countries are approaching even the inadequate Paris agreement targets. And if you achieved such insulation, without other more drastic changes to our society, people would just run their AC/heat more to reach more luxurious temperatures, and we would not avoid any greenhouse gas emissions.

somewhereoutth 4y ago
Yes, a very important principle. See also road building and induced demand. Therefore we should be working to reduce supply of fossil fuels, to 'keep it in the ground'. If there is less to go round, then efficiencies will still be found but used to maintain what we had (as far as practicable) as opposed to increasing demand
- fmajid 4y ago
  The concept of “induced demand” as if it’s a bad thing is irredeemably stupid. It’s like saying “adding Internet bandwidth is pointless because demand will just rise to match capacity, and we should go back to the days of 56K modems”.
  - somewhereoutth 4y ago
    It is a bad thing if we fully understand the personal and social cost of car driving.

MrBuddyCasino 4y ago

None of it makes sense, unless you assume that they are not very bright, or the actual goal is to dismantle the current civilisation due to malcontent stemming from the projection of personal issues. Revenge Against God For The Crime Of Being.

btmiller 4y ago

Father John Misty’s Things It Would’ve Been Helpful to Know Before the Revolution is worth a listen.