4 ms·

From what i've seen ruby is definitely on the downward slope regarding adoption and python has become a defacto standard in some fields. Its ecosystem is much b

by bsaul 4y ago

From what i've seen ruby is definitely on the downward slope regarding adoption and python has become a defacto standard in some fields. Its ecosystem is much better in pretty much every domain, so i don't think there's any point switching at the moment, honestly.

jillesvangurp 4y ago
I've used both. I slightly prefer python over ruby. But I haven't used either recently. Ruby's strength is internal DSLs. Python's strength is that it's simple to pick up for people. There's a large community of people that are not primarily programmers that use it. The reason for this is that it is a very easy language to get started with. Both share the same problem: they are weakly typed scripting languages. Both have in common that type annotations have been retrofitted to the language. But it's an uncomfortable and awkward retrofit in both cases and their respective communities seem to regard using types as an optional and inconvenient thing. Ruby with types of course exists. E.g. Crystal is nice apparently. But I've not really seen that used in the wild. Python is enormously popular; ruby's popularity seems to have declined a lot. I know a lot of former Ruby programmers that have moved to different languages and only a handful that still use it. It's not an obvious language to pick up for younger programmers. There are so many other languages to choose instead. IMHO the key innovation in language design in recent years has been type inference. This has lead to a new breed of languages that keep most of what made python and ruby popular: the ability to write code with a minimum of verbosity but without sacrificing type safety. Whether you use Kotlin, Typescript, C#, or even Java: they have type inference now and it reduces the verbosity that comes with having types. Scripting vs. compiled languages is much murkier these days where scripting languages have compilers or transpilers and linters and compiled languages have REPLs and all languages can now run in a browser via WASM anyway. The distinction is just not that relevant anymore. I write a lot of Kotlin, have dabbled a bit with typescript and I don't think I'll ever use languages without proper types again. Just not worth it for me. I don't see the value of not having a good typing system. Kotlin is interesting to me because internal DSLs are a thing with it; just like they were a thing with Ruby. And it can use javascript as a compilation target. Ruby has a slightly nicer syntax for DSLs than Kotlin for internal DSLs. But I don't mind curly braces and having strong typing enables a lot of good stuff. Like proper IDEs with refactoring, autocompletion, auto-fixes, etc. which are all very nice things to have in a DSL. I use Kotlin DSLs for writing CSS, HTML components (we use kotlin-js), writing elasticsearch queries (I maintain the multi-platform kt-search library), gradle build files (which uses kotlin script), and quite a few more things. IMHO, it could do a lot of things that python is popular for as well.
- pmontra 4y ago
  > they are weakly typed I think you should check the difference between strongly and weakly typed languages [1] You probably intended dynamically typed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_and_weak_typing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_and_weak_typing
- n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
  - funnybookbinder 4y ago
    The parentheses become less obtrusive when you indent lisp code properly. Then you just read it according to indentation like Python. I don’t find the parentheses problematic.
- cutler 4y ago
  C# and Java with minimum verbosity? That I'd like to see. Kotlin.js HTML generation is just hideous.
keithalewis 4y ago
Good thinking. You might have to learn something new.

by bsaul 4y ago

jillesvangurp 4y ago

I've used both. I slightly prefer python over ruby. But I haven't used either recently. Ruby's strength is internal DSLs. Python's strength is that it's simple to pick up for people. There's a large community of people that are not primarily programmers that use it. The reason for this is that it is a very easy language to get started with. Both share the same problem: they are weakly typed scripting languages. Both have in common that type annotations have been retrofitted to the language. But it's an uncomfortable and awkward retrofit in both cases and their respective communities seem to regard using types as an optional and inconvenient thing. Ruby with types of course exists. E.g. Crystal is nice apparently. But I've not really seen that used in the wild. Python is enormously popular; ruby's popularity seems to have declined a lot. I know a lot of former Ruby programmers that have moved to different languages and only a handful that still use it. It's not an obvious language to pick up for younger programmers. There are so many other languages to choose instead. IMHO the key innovation in language design in recent years has been type inference. This has lead to a new breed of languages that keep most of what made python and ruby popular: the ability to write code with a minimum of verbosity but without sacrificing type safety. Whether you use Kotlin, Typescript, C#, or even Java: they have type inference now and it reduces the verbosity that comes with having types. Scripting vs. compiled languages is much murkier these days where scripting languages have compilers or transpilers and linters and compiled languages have REPLs and all languages can now run in a browser via WASM anyway. The distinction is just not that relevant anymore. I write a lot of Kotlin, have dabbled a bit with typescript and I don't think I'll ever use languages without proper types again. Just not worth it for me. I don't see the value of not having a good typing system. Kotlin is interesting to me because internal DSLs are a thing with it; just like they were a thing with Ruby. And it can use javascript as a compilation target. Ruby has a slightly nicer syntax for DSLs than Kotlin for internal DSLs. But I don't mind curly braces and having strong typing enables a lot of good stuff. Like proper IDEs with refactoring, autocompletion, auto-fixes, etc. which are all very nice things to have in a DSL. I use Kotlin DSLs for writing CSS, HTML components (we use kotlin-js), writing elasticsearch queries (I maintain the multi-platform kt-search library), gradle build files (which uses kotlin script), and quite a few more things. IMHO, it could do a lot of things that python is popular for as well.

pmontra 4y ago
> they are weakly typed I think you should check the difference between strongly and weakly typed languages [1] You probably intended dynamically typed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_and_weak_typing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_and_weak_typing
n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
- funnybookbinder 4y ago
  The parentheses become less obtrusive when you indent lisp code properly. Then you just read it according to indentation like Python. I don’t find the parentheses problematic.
cutler 4y ago
C# and Java with minimum verbosity? That I'd like to see. Kotlin.js HTML generation is just hideous.

keithalewis 4y ago

Good thinking. You might have to learn something new.