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You've missed step 0 (and earlier): how did you trustlessly obtain the bitcoin in the first place? Your options aren't good here: a) Buy it on an exchange: You

You've missed step 0 (and earlier): how did you trustlessly obtain the bitcoin in the first place? Your options aren't good here: a) Buy it on an exchange: You need to trust that the exchange won't just run off with/sell your real money/credit card details (but at least in the real world you have a chance of clawing back stolen cash) b) Buy it via a service like localbitcoins, where you meet a stranger in an alley and hand them hard cash. Not very trustless! c) Mine the coins yourself. But unless you build a bitcoin miner from scratch, you need to trust the hardware and software (how do you know for sure that it isn't mining to someone else's account?) And your miner needs to be connected to the internet, so hackers could get your coins. There are no good trustless options. You have to accept some risk. EDIT: I missed the only tried and true trustless way to get bitcoins: d) Hack/phish/con someone else out of their bitcoins!

Yeahsureok 4y ago
Bisq - P2P trading, pay by cash deposit into a strangers bank account
Geee 4y ago
This is the world outside of Bitcoin, and is irrelevant to this question. For these transactions, you have faith in your legal system, government, democracy etc. If you're scammed by an exchange, you sue them and you should get your money back.
JonathanBeuys 4y ago
You can obtain them via as many small transactions as you like. Never trusting anyone with more than the transaction amount.
- dividedbyzero 4y ago
  That minimizes risk, but trust is still involved.
runeks 4y ago
Why is this relevant? It doesn’t matter how OP obtained their bitcoins — trustlessly or not — what matters is that OP now has them and want to keep them without trusting a hardware wallet company.
pjc50 4y ago
And the reverse is even more important: having spent immense time and effort to acquire the output of a random number generator, how can you ensure it preserves its value when you want to actually exchange it for something? Given the 2/3 fall from the peak against the stabledollar this is a real risk.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  This is an irrelevant tangent in this case, the question is about using bitcoin in a trustless way.
TacticalCoder 4y ago
> You've missed step 0 (and earlier): how did you trustlessly obtain the bitcoin in the first place? Your options aren't good here: You're missing an easy and obvious option. You plan to buy 10 Bitcoin (not saying it's a good idea): you wire tx enough to buy one on Gemini or Coinbase (or whatever exchange fits you), wait for the tx to clear, buy one Bitcoin, move it to your hardware wallet. Rinse and repeat 9 more times. At any one time you're never exposed to more than 1/10th of the amount you planned to buy. I think a lot of highly speculative investors but still cautious people proceeded that way. There are even sites tracking the Bitcoin and Ethereum and whatnots addresses accumulating coins on a regular basis.
- yunohn 4y ago
  Huh? This doesn't solve the original problem at all, and only results in larger tx fee losses.
8organicbits 4y ago
With a typical currency the answer of "how to get money" is to get a job. Trustless usually isn't a concern, in that paychecks are reliable and worker protection laws exist. (Not saying it's perfect, just stating the status quo). The lack of a bitcoin economy prevents or frustrates this approach. With typical currencies, you can exchange at a currency exchange counter at the border/airport or use your bank/credit card which handles the conversion behind the scenes. I suppose the equivalent for bitcoin is a bitcoin ATM or bitcoin credit card.
- lowkey 4y ago
  With typical currency a central bank can arbitrarily inflate (read as dilute) the purchasing power of your savings and there is nothing you can do to prevent it.
teawrecks 4y ago
Where is the risk with a? Seems like you yourself explain why it would work fine. If you get the coins, great. If not, you do a classic charge back. Either way, trust of everything outside of owning your coins is irrelevant to the exercise. If you're going to play devil's advocate, you need to come up with relevant counter examples.

Yeahsureok 4y ago

Bisq - P2P trading, pay by cash deposit into a strangers bank account

Geee 4y ago

This is the world outside of Bitcoin, and is irrelevant to this question. For these transactions, you have faith in your legal system, government, democracy etc. If you're scammed by an exchange, you sue them and you should get your money back.

JonathanBeuys 4y ago

You can obtain them via as many small transactions as you like. Never trusting anyone with more than the transaction amount.

dividedbyzero 4y ago
That minimizes risk, but trust is still involved.

runeks 4y ago

Why is this relevant? It doesn’t matter how OP obtained their bitcoins — trustlessly or not — what matters is that OP now has them and want to keep them without trusting a hardware wallet company.

pjc50 4y ago

And the reverse is even more important: having spent immense time and effort to acquire the output of a random number generator, how can you ensure it preserves its value when you want to actually exchange it for something? Given the 2/3 fall from the peak against the stabledollar this is a real risk.

cinntaile 4y ago
This is an irrelevant tangent in this case, the question is about using bitcoin in a trustless way.

TacticalCoder 4y ago

> You've missed step 0 (and earlier): how did you trustlessly obtain the bitcoin in the first place? Your options aren't good here: You're missing an easy and obvious option. You plan to buy 10 Bitcoin (not saying it's a good idea): you wire tx enough to buy one on Gemini or Coinbase (or whatever exchange fits you), wait for the tx to clear, buy one Bitcoin, move it to your hardware wallet. Rinse and repeat 9 more times. At any one time you're never exposed to more than 1/10th of the amount you planned to buy. I think a lot of highly speculative investors but still cautious people proceeded that way. There are even sites tracking the Bitcoin and Ethereum and whatnots addresses accumulating coins on a regular basis.

yunohn 4y ago
Huh? This doesn't solve the original problem at all, and only results in larger tx fee losses.

8organicbits 4y ago

With a typical currency the answer of "how to get money" is to get a job. Trustless usually isn't a concern, in that paychecks are reliable and worker protection laws exist. (Not saying it's perfect, just stating the status quo). The lack of a bitcoin economy prevents or frustrates this approach. With typical currencies, you can exchange at a currency exchange counter at the border/airport or use your bank/credit card which handles the conversion behind the scenes. I suppose the equivalent for bitcoin is a bitcoin ATM or bitcoin credit card.

lowkey 4y ago
With typical currency a central bank can arbitrarily inflate (read as dilute) the purchasing power of your savings and there is nothing you can do to prevent it.

teawrecks 4y ago

Where is the risk with a? Seems like you yourself explain why it would work fine. If you get the coins, great. If not, you do a classic charge back. Either way, trust of everything outside of owning your coins is irrelevant to the exercise. If you're going to play devil's advocate, you need to come up with relevant counter examples.